International fees discrimination?

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SweetSummerx
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Whether you are a home, EU or international student we all study the same course, have access to the same resources and finish with the same qualifications. Are international fees justifiable?
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ageshallnot
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(Original post by SweetSummerx)
Whether you are a home, EU or international student we all study the same course, have access to the same resources and finish with the same qualifications. Are international fees justifiable?
How much do foreign governments pay to British universities in the way that the British government does???
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Mr Wednesday
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(Original post by SweetSummerx)
Whether you are a home, EU or international student we all study the same course, have access to the same resources and finish with the same qualifications. Are international fees justifiable?
The maximum fee for home students is mandated by Government, not by an imaginary "market" or the real cost of delivery. That's why a home UG course in history at a lower end ex polly costs the same as a STEM degree from Oxbridge. This also means that universities actually make a loss on many courses, particularly those requiring lab work. Fees for overseas student however are not controlled by Government, so can (1) be raised to cover the cost of delivery without breaking the law, and (2) increased above that breakeven point to cross subsidise home students to stop the university going bankrupt.
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SweetSummerx
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(Original post by Mr Wednesday)
The maximum fee for home students is mandated by Government, not by an imaginary "market" or the real cost of delivery. That's why a home UG course in history at a lower end ex polly costs the same as a STEM degree from Oxbridge. This also means that universities actually make a loss on many courses, particularly those requiring lab work. Fees for overseas student however are not controlled by Government, so can (1) be raised to cover the cost of delivery without breaking the law, and (2) increased above that breakeven point to cross subsidise home students to stop the university going bankrupt.
So should home fees increase in courses with higher costs so universities break-even? Is it morally right that international students are the compensators for these costs?
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ageshallnot
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(Original post by SweetSummerx)
So should home fees increase in courses with higher costs so universities break-even? Is it morally right that international students are the compensators for these costs?
Did you bother reading my point above??? Why should the UK taxpayer give money to foreign students???
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SweetSummerx
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(Original post by ageshallnot)
Did you bother reading my point above??? Why should the UK taxpayer give money to foreign students???
They don’t. Foreign students are either self funded, funded through their own country or occasionally they get scholarships. The UK government subsidies home students fees, my point was if the courses are running at a loss as above post claims, does that not mean fees need to increase? As home student fees are at a fixed level determined by the government that means international fees will increase, but what happens when they increase beyond a level they are willing to pay? Do will finally take responsibility for our universities and pay fees that actually cover their cost or do we simply hope foreign governments will increase their funding for internatIonal students to attend?
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eeiiiiio
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International students don't have to come and study here; no one's forcing them. Most of them are rich enough that the cost isn't a problem (otherwise why not study in their own country?). However most English people aren't that rich and wouldn't want to pay >>>£9250 (even if it is a loan) which would make our universities full of only international students - is that what you want?
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SweetSummerx
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(Original post by eeiiiiio)
International students don't have to come and study here; no one's forcing them. Most of them are rich enough that the cost isn't a problem (otherwise why not study in their own country?). However most English people aren't that rich and wouldn't want to pay >>>£9250 (even if it is a loan) which would make our universities full of only international students - is that what you want?
Personally I would love for education to be free like it is in several other countries. But as that’s not going to happen (thanks vice-chancellor for that £400k pay check you took) I think universities should offer full scholarships to home students for academic excellence, especially when that person is first generation going to uni, from a low income background or from an area where people don’t usually go to uni. But my point is university staff have been going on strike a lot in the last few years over pay and pensions, if we don’t do something will universities stop running courses or even close all together?

Looking at medicine stats this year, 5,210 EU and international students applied, compared to 18,500. That roughly means 1 in 4 medical applicants were not from the UK, so is that why we have a shortage of doctors? If universities have to take a certain percentage of UK students to get their funding, once they meet that percentage who do they take then? The student paying £9,250 to be there or the student paying £38,850 (which is King’s fee as an example). So perhaps the title for this thread should have been are international fees shooting us in the foot?
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PQ
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(Original post by SweetSummerx)
Looking at medicine stats this year, 5,210 EU and international students applied, compared to 18,500. That roughly means 1 in 4 medical applicants were not from the UK, so is that why we have a shortage of doctors?
Medicine places are capped - including a very strict cap on non-UK entrants. The shortage of doctors is because the current government started clamping down on any over-shooting of the caps way back in 2010 when they should have been increasing numbers to feed into the workforce

If universities have to take a certain percentage of UK students to get their funding, once they meet that percentage who do they take then?
Universities don't have to take a certain percentage of UK students to get their funding (at least outside Scotland - their university funding is still controlled). Aside from Medicine/Dentistry where numbers are capped they can take as many UK students as they can accommodate and teach. If they take more on high cost subjects then they get more government subsidy.
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SweetSummerx
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(Original post by PQ)
Medicine places are capped - including a very strict cap on non-UK entrants. The shortage of doctors is because the current government started clamping down on any over-shooting of the caps way back in 2010 when they should have been increasing numbers to feed into the workforce


Universities don't have to take a certain percentage of UK students to get their funding (at least outside Scotland - their university funding is still controlled). Aside from Medicine/Dentistry where numbers are capped they can take as many UK students as they can accommodate and teach. If they take more on high cost subjects then they get more government subsidy.
So if there is no cap then surely economically it makes sense to take more international students for their fees? But back to the original topic do you think it’s right that they pay more for the same course?
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J Papi
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Who cares. Cough up and pay or **** off
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Reality Check
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(Original post by SweetSummerx)
So should home fees increase in courses with higher costs so universities break-even? Is it morally right that international students are the compensators for these costs?
Are you forced to attend a UK university? No. If you want to come, pay the fees without whining on about it. If you don't want to pay the fee, you go elsewhere.

It's really simple without trying to make it into some great moral debate.
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SweetSummerx
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(Original post by Reality Check)
Are you forced to attend a UK university? No. If you want to come, pay the fees without whining on about it. If you don't want to pay the fee, you go elsewhere.

It's really simple without trying to make it into some great moral debate.
I’m from the UK so pay home fees. I’m not complaining, I’m simply wanting to know what other think, it is ok to have an opinion
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Reality Check
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(Original post by J Papi)
Who cares. Cough up and pay or **** off
No, but what do you really think, Johan. :laugh:
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AnonymousNoMore
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I think they should pay more, they don't contribute to the tax system, through income tax at least, and so don't get the benefits from it. The same reason why I don't agree with international tourists and such having free access to the NHS, which currently they don't I believe. Which is a good thing.
But no it's not discriminatory it's purely subsidisation because trust me, the universities would love to charge everyone the international feew
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PQ
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(Original post by SweetSummerx)
So if there is no cap then surely economically it makes sense to take more international students for their fees? But back to the original topic do you think it’s right that they pay more for the same course?
Yes it's right. UK students are subsidised by the UK government. Unsubsidised students are charged a higher fee to cover the difference. In some cases there's even more charged because students from different educational backgrounds require additional support and that also needs to be paid for (again students from certain backgrounds from the UK attract additional subsidies from the UK government).

The differential in fees/costs is minimal for undergraduate courses (apart from in London where universities charge an extra premium to international students - again the UK government gives london universities an additional supplement to cover the additional costs of property and staff in london).

At postgraduate there's a much larger difference - that's where some universities will take very large numbers of international students at prices well above the cost of delivering their course in order to subsidise other areas of the university. That doesn't deprive UK students of places.
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BlueIndigoViolet
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(Original post by SweetSummerx)
I’m from the UK so pay home fees. I’m not complaining, I’m simply wanting to know what other think, it is ok to have an opinion
its entirely justified imo, the UK should provide subsidies for UK students like any other government, while those from other nations must fund their studies if they want to study here, its not the only country to have international fees and most students would agree
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SweetSummerx
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(Original post by Reality Check)
No, but what do you really think, Johan. :laugh:
So you are ok with the idea of international students taking their money else where, which means the government will either have to remove the fees cap so home students pay more or let the universities run themselves into debt. But who cares that is a future problem, the future students can worry what you really thought and how you reacted
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Reality Check
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(Original post by SweetSummerx)
So you are ok with the idea of international students taking their money else where, which means the government will either have to remove the fees cap so home students pay more or let the universities run themselves into debt. But who cares that is a future problem, the future students can worry what you really thought and how you reacted
They don't take their money elsewhere though, do they? They still come in droves to the UK because of the quality of some of the courses. And quality means the universities can command high prices for them. And why shouldn't they?
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PQ
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(Original post by SweetSummerx)
So you are ok with the idea of international students taking their money else where, which means the government will either have to remove the fees cap so home students pay more or let the universities run themselves into debt. But who cares that is a future problem, the future students can worry what you really thought and how you reacted
Why are they going elsewhere?
UK undergraduate degrees are a year shorter than most other English speaking HE systems and the pound is very weak (and likely to get weaker). Students with the choice of where to study see the UK system as a very reasonable price compared internationally and the regulation systems mean that there's very few "dodgy" universities operating in the UK (and those that are can't be sponsors for a student visa).
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