Gender Pay Gap Myth - Correlation is not Causation

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Rave1128
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Statistics generally show that men earn on average 9% more than women.

Is it correct that there are many factors that make up this figure and is not because of patriarchy or discrimination against women?
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Rave1128)
Statistics generally show that men earn on average 9% more than women.

Is it correct that there are many factors that make up this figure and is not because of patriarchy or discrimination against women?
Are these myths?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50599080
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ngham-20294633

And even if they are myths, why do women choose lower paid work?

Those who say it is a myth would shrug and say that is just how it is.

Other's like myself would argue that the fabric of society at present conditions girls from birth to think less of themselves and tempervtheir ambitions.
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Just my opinion
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Are these myths?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50599080
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ngham-20294633

And even if they are myths, why do women choose lower paid work?

Those who say it is a myth would shrug and say that is just how it is.

Other's like myself would argue that the fabric of society at present conditions girls from birth to think less of themselves and tempervtheir ambitions.
It doesn't help that people keep saying the gap doesn't exist. It does, just not for the simplistic "sexist" reasons that feminists talk about.
Hypergamy is the rarely acknowledged engine that drives most of the gender earnings gap.

Despite feminists painting it in the reverse, harder to qualify in and harder to do, higher paying jobs don't pay more because they are male jobs.
Its the opposite.
Men go after these jobs because they pay more.

Why do men do this?
Why will they choose a harder to qualify in harder to do job at the cost of their psychological and physical health?
A major reason is because from an early age, boys growing up see in the world around them that women are attracted to hard working, bigger earners, that can provide well when children come along, so men are under pressure to earn more because income and especially potential future earnings rate much, much higher in the average woman's list of attractive qualities when choosing a life partner than it does for men.
Its a way of average or even plain men to make themselves attractive to a higher sexual value life partner.
Essentially a way of a male 6 to catch a female 8 or a 9

Put plainly, if men found money and the stability and potential support it brings as attractive as women do in a partner, then a lot more women would go after harder to do higher paying jobs,.

Most men will happily date and marry a woman that earns substantially less than them or is even unemployed, whereas most women, while some may date them, most will avoid them as a life partner.
This is especially true in the middle- classes.
It is the reason 80% of female Drs(UK) work part-time. How can somebody on £100,000 take a 50% pay cut when the expense of children comes along? They can do it because the majority went out of their way to choose a partner that earns at least as much if not more than them.

For the above reasons men *generally* are hardwired to aggressively chase higher wages in a way that women *generally* aren't.
These are all choices freely made by men and women.
I don't blame women for planning long term in ways that men don't btw, if I were a woman I would too.
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Rave1128
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Are these myths?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50599080
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ngham-20294633

And even if they are myths, why do women choose lower paid work?

Those who say it is a myth would shrug and say that is just how it is.

Other's like myself would argue that the fabric of society at present conditions girls from birth to think less of themselves and tempervtheir ambitions.
Intresting comment about society. Have you read about the Nordic Gender Paradox?

Regarding the lower pay comment, could it be that jobs which are higher paid may also attract longer and unsociable hours, and that women are more likley to reject these in favour of better work-life balance?
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Rave1128
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(Original post by Just my opinion)
It doesn't help that people keep saying the gap doesn't exist. It does, just not for the simplistic "sexist" reasons that feminists talk about.
Hypergamy is the rarely acknowledged engine that drives most of the gender earnings gap.

Despite feminists painting it in the reverse, harder to qualify in and harder to do, higher paying jobs don't pay more because they are male jobs.
Its the opposite.
Men go after these jobs because they pay more.

Why do men do this?
Why will they choose a harder to qualify in harder to do job at the cost of their psychological and physical health?
A major reason is because from an early age, boys growing up see in the world around them that women are attracted to hard working, bigger earners, that can provide well when children come along, so men are under pressure to earn more because income and especially potential future earnings rate much, much higher in the average woman's list of attractive qualities when choosing a life partner than it does for men.
Its a way of average or even plain men to make themselves attractive to a higher sexual value life partner.
Essentially a way of a male 6 to catch a female 8 or a 9

Put plainly, if men found money and the stability and potential support it brings as attractive as women do in a partner, then a lot more women would go after harder to do higher paying jobs,.

Most men will happily date and marry a woman that earns substantially less than them or is even unemployed, whereas most women, while some may date them, most will avoid them as a life partner.
This is especially true in the middle- classes.
It is the reason 80% of female Drs(UK) work part-time. How can somebody on £100,000 take a 50% pay cut when the expense of children comes along? They can do it because the majority went out of their way to choose a partner that earns at least as much if not more than them.

For the above reasons men *generally* are hardwired to aggressively chase higher wages in a way that women *generally* aren't.
These are all choices freely made by men and women.
I don't blame women for planning long term in ways that men don't btw, if I were a woman I would too.
Its an interesting observation.

Social theorists propose that hypergamy is a result of womens traditionally lower status in society and due to the fact they they give birth, women needed to ensure they achieved relative sexuring for themselves and offspring. Social theorists also propose that that hypergamy is decreasing, as the gender pay gap decreases and women are more able to be financially independent, including being able to oricide for their offspring independently of the father.

What are your thoughts on the Social Theorists view of decreasing hypergamy?
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Just my opinion
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(Original post by Rave1128)
Intresting comment about society. Have you read about the Nordic Gender Paradox?

Regarding the lower pay comment, could it be that jobs which are higher paid may also attract longer and unsociable hours, and that women are more likley to reject these in favour of better work-life balance?
Yes, the Nordic gender paradox is very much ignored by feminists.
The more freedom of social traditional norms women have the more they freely choose traditional female roles.
In the least patriarchal countries in the world over 90% of engineers are men and over 90% of nurses are women. We have a higher % of women in stem here in the UK than they do.
What's more in some of most restrictive and patriarchal countries in the world Russia, India, China, they have numbers of women in stem that would give feminists here wet dreams.
Your observations about longer hours is correct women *generally* avoid the long hours that men work. It all pays into the gap.
Here's a little nugget that gets ignored . When a man makes the same career choices and work life balance choices that the average woman does, he earns less than an average man too.
Another example was a survey taken of NQTs.
Teachers fresh from uni.
Asked if they had plans to go for a headship in the future 53% of males said yes compared to 18% of females. This is in an industry heavily dominated by women.
I'm married to a teacher. I have met literally hundreds. I have met countless part time female teachers but no male part timers.
The better work life balance women choose to have may well be a major contribution to the reason they live longer
This life gap was only 1 year at the turn of the 20th century even though h&s was un heard of and men were worked like dogs.
Fast forwards 60 or 70 years and the gap had grown to 6 or 7 years (depending where you lived) despite the invention of h&s and the deindustrialization of Britain. The gap has started closing again over the last couple of decades.
Interesting that the alleged wage gap is always in the media but not the lifetime/ pension gap.
For over 70 yrs men worked 5 yrs longer for the same pension as women only to die an average of 7 yrs earlier. This 12 yr life/retirement gap was hardly ever talked about and is only now coming to an end.
Last edited by Just my opinion; 4 weeks ago
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Just my opinion
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(Original post by Rave1128)
Its an interesting observation.

Social theorists propose that hypergamy is a result of womens traditionally lower status in society and due to the fact they they give birth, women needed to ensure they achieved relative sexuring for themselves and offspring. Social theorists also propose that that hypergamy is decreasing, as the gender pay gap decreases and women are more able to be financially independent, including being able to oricide for their offspring independently of the father.

What are your thoughts on the Social Theorists view of decreasing hypergamy?
I haven't read that hypergamy is decreasing, that is interesting.
I would be more inclined to listen to social theorists theories about it being down to female lower status if it wasn't for the fact that women even of high status, including millionaires, all practice hypergamy too.
The giving birth theory makes total sense though. Who wouldn't want the option of being able to go part time or pack in working while the kids are little. I know all things being equal I would.
The ironic thing is if more women abandoned hypergamy they would be more likely to be the main earner. As such it would make financial sense for the man to do most child care and possibly go part time. A major knock on effect would be to close the gap.
It's interesting that it is practiced in all classes in all countries.
Warren Farrell wrote an interesting book called Why Men Earn More and in it he posits that while discrimination sometimes plays a part, both men and women unconsciously make trade-offs that affect how much they earn. Farrell clearly defines the 25 different workplace choices that affect women's and men's incomes -- including putting in more hours at work, taking riskier jobs or more hazardous assignments, being willing to change location, and training for technical jobs that involve less people contact -- and provides readers with specific, research-supported ways for women to earn higher pay.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Rave1128)
Regarding the lower pay comment, could it be that jobs which are higher paid may also attract longer and unsociable hours, and that women are more likley to reject these in favour of better work-life balance?
Absolutely. So the question that arises is why do women want the work-life balance whilst men seem happy to work themselves into the ground? Are you suggesting there is a work-life-balance gene?
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Rave1128
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The science shows that men tend to be more competitive and interested in the abstract. where as women are more people focused, which is why they may wish to spend more time with their families and friends rather than at work.

That could be down to genes.
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Pinkisk
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99.9% of people on this forum will not understand what you mean by that...correlation is not causation...but ya, its not. Ergo, gender pay gap narrative = destroyed.

P.S. I have only ever come across one other person use this argument to refute feminist narrative surrounding the gender pay gap. Its really rare. If this is your original idea, then I am impressed. This logic is high IQ.
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Rave1128
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lol... thanks.

Definatley not and orginal idea. Its a phrase used in statistics, also know as the "logic fallacy".

i am practicing for an ensuing debate at work. I somehow ended up as the EDI champion 😱 i think there are hoping i will say something "offensive" so they can finally sack me.🤣🤣
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Ragman75
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(Original post by Rave1128)
Statistics generally show that men earn on average 9% more than women.

Is it correct that there are many factors that make up this figure and is not because of patriarchy or discrimination against women?
Yes it insn't discrimination. The reason men earn more on average is becuase by almost every metric on average men make choices to become more usefull and thus better paid workers. Men work longer, men take less holidays, men are more likely to specialize, men are more likely to take the jobs no one wants... and so on.
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Ragman75
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Are these myths?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50599080
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ngham-20294633

And even if they are myths, why do women choose lower paid work?

Those who say it is a myth would shrug and say that is just how it is.

Other's like myself would argue that the fabric of society at present conditions girls from birth to think less of themselves and tempervtheir ambitions.
Yes they are. The first one was a tribunal not a court. Also She is complaining that she got paid less than her more famous male counterpart, another great example of why women earn less. The other guy brought in more buzz for thier show why should she earn the same amount of money.

The 2nd one doesnt prove anything either, thats just some corrupt higher up not paying his employees you have literally no evicence to show if the employees where men he would have paid them more.

Women choose to earn less, because they sacrifice monetary gain for improved life experience, the reality is most people who are well off do not have a lot of free time for holidays or work in places where they can chat to friends. They work in high stress, low break environments doing really dry complicated tasks. Women in general dont like these things as much as men so they dont pursue these high earning jobs.
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Rave1128
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(Original post by Ragman75)
Yes they are. The first one was a tribunal not a court. Also She is complaining that she got paid less than her more famous male counterpart, another great example of why women earn less. The other guy brought in more buzz for thier show why should she earn the same amount of money.

The 2nd one doesnt prove anything either, thats just some corrupt higher up not paying his employees you have literally no evicence to show if the employees where men he would have paid them more.

Women choose to earn less, because they sacrifice monetary gain for improved life experience, the reality is most people who are well off do not have a lot of free time for holidays or work in places where they can chat to friends. They work in high stress, low break environments doing really dry complicated tasks. Women in general dont like these things as much as men so they dont pursue these high earning jobs.
also, funny how women never argue men get paid too much and need a pay cut. its always women need a pay rise to match.
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discovery01
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(Original post by Rave1128)
Statistics generally show that men earn on average 9% more than women.

Is it correct that there are many factors that make up this figure and is not because of patriarchy or discrimination against women?
Yes its correct and some examples of those factors can be different socialisation, different jobs, different employment backgrounds/qualifications and even within the same career there are different positions so you can't compare analyst pay with associate pay for example.
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vicvic38
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Wow don't you think you're hot stuff? wow u really
PWNED
Them feminazis, amirite?

Why don't you actually try to refute real feminist theory, not this bull.
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Rave1128
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(Original post by vicvic38)
Wow don't you think you're hot stuff? wow u really
PWNED
Them feminazis, amirite?

Why don't you actually try to refute real feminist theory, not this bull.
wow, someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning.

Give an example of a "real feminist theory" to have a mass debate about..
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Rachel Set Aung
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(Original post by Ragman75)
Yes it insn't discrimination. The reason men earn more on average is becuase by almost every metric on average men make choices to become more usefull and thus better paid workers. Men work longer, men take less holidays, men are more likely to specialize, men are more likely to take the jobs no one wants... and so on.
Following this narrative, women’s priority to their families do inevitably lead to less pay. But why does this happen? Why do women choose to prioritize their families while men focus on their careers? While it may be true that some women are more naturally nurturing, the same can be said for men. I have doubts that a majority of women are freely choosing this.

There’s a lifelong social conditioning that girls are exposed to from a young age to fill a certain role. While you can claim it is woman’s free choice to choose family, another perspective to add is that are they expected to do so. Since it is expected that a women should prioritize their families, it is what they do to attain the same satisfaction as their male counterparts who prioritize work, who are also traditionally and generally expected to pursue their careers more fervently than women.

Girls are taught from a young age to be nurturing, through the mainstream media (fortunately, this is admittedly decreasing), through gendered toys and video games, like the baby dolls, the toy baby trolleys and toy cooking sets littered in pink and glitter and so much more. Boys on the other hand, are also exposed to gendered toys and entertainment, only that theirs encourage competition and victories for them to grow up to be go-getters later in life.

This is to show that it’s not just women through some nurturing gene, according to science, that are choosing to opt for lower paying jobs and employment options as they do. There are a lot of underlying social factors and expectations that comes into play, which may not be recognized by many, that should not and cannot be ignored.
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Pinkisk
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(Original post by Rave1128)
lol... thanks.

Definatley not and orginal idea. Its a phrase used in statistics, also know as the "logic fallacy".

i am practicing for an ensuing debate at work. I somehow ended up as the EDI champion 😱 i think there are hoping i will say something "offensive" so they can finally sack me.🤣🤣
I was not referring to the concept of causality. That is not an original idea. We have largely Einstein to thank for this concept that revolutionised our understanding of the world. I meant, I've only ever come across one person who used this concept to utterly destroy the gender pay gap narrative...only one person. So far he is the only person I have come across anywhere that relies on this concept to refute the feminist gender pay gap narrative. He does not do it very well. So most people, particularly those that lack in eduction, wind up not understanding his logic...but those that do have a background in this concept, it just blows them away.

If it is your original idea to apply this concept to the gender pay gap then that is very impressive. If it is not, still it is very impressive. Most people do not understand this concept, let alone the logic behind it. I've come across many professors who do not understand causality. If you are going to use this argument to debate the gender pay gap, bear this in mind. You will have to present it in such a way that people would understand you, without needing a degree and high intellect. You have to simplify it. Most people who engage in debates in support of the gender pay gap, lack in basic intellectual capacity. So if you present this argument to them without simplifying it, it will fly over their heads.
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Rave1128
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(Original post by Rachel Set Aung)
Following this narrative, women’s priority to their families do inevitably lead to less pay. But why does this happen? Why do women choose to prioritize their families while men focus on their careers? While it may be true that some women are more naturally nurturing, the same can be said for men. I have doubts that a majority of women are freely choosing this.

There’s a lifelong social conditioning that girls are exposed to from a young age to fill a certain role. While you can claim it is woman’s free choice to choose family, another perspective to add is that are they expected to do so. Since it is expected that a women should prioritize their families, it is what they do to attain the same satisfaction as their male counterparts who prioritize work, who are also traditionally and generally expected to pursue their careers more fervently than women.

Girls are taught from a young age to be nurturing, through the mainstream media (fortunately, this is admittedly decreasing), through gendered toys and video games, like the baby dolls, the toy baby trolleys and toy cooking sets littered in pink and glitter and so much more. Boys on the other hand, are also exposed to gendered toys and entertainment, only that theirs encourage competition and victories for them to grow up to be go-getters later in life.

This is to show that it’s not just women through some nurturing gene, according to science, that are choosing to opt for lower paying jobs and employment options as they do. There are a lot of underlying social factors and expectations that comes into play, which may not be recognized by many, that should not and cannot be ignored.
how about the idea that capitalism and the moder social construct that it is somehow a bad thing to be nurturing and motherly. i mean, women have probably the greatest gift anyone can have, being able to incubate life inside their bodies and then once born, feed them with nutirents from their brests. This establishes a bond betweenother and child that is extraordinarily strong, in way that men can never experience. i always wonder why instead of promoting this and fighting for it, women want to fight for a life spent more and more at the workplace and less and less with their families. very strange to me.

also, regarding toys. Toy manufacturers sell toys to make money, if the kids rejected the toys they made, they wouldn't make them. there is no toy conspiracy to brain wash girls to beore like girls.
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