America faces a terrible choice between Sanders and Trump

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Napp
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#61
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#61
(Original post by fairytopia)
ok first of all, it's looking to be trump v biden and the dems are beating trump at the polls in pretty much every state.
secondly, i'm assuming you're from western europe? because i'm from canada and none of bernie's policies seem extreme to me at all... his ideas are the norm for every other developed western country... how can america be the wealthiest, most powerful in the world, yet lack policies and systems that have existed in countries like cuba for decades? sanders is only proposing the society that america should be, but americans are so far gone that they can't even recognize basic rights. seeing bernie as an extremist is demonstrates perfectly how far right the world has shifted if the bare minimum standard of how we all ought to live is seen as ludicrous.
and finally, i unfortunately do not think that america is ready for, nor deserves a president like bernie. to go from trump to bernie would be absolute chaos and honestly make things worse, dividing and polarizing the nation (and subsequently, the world) even more. as much as i hesitate to admit, biden is the bipartisan moderate the world needs right now.
Given this is a British forum that would be a safe assumption :rolleyes:
Comparing apples and oranges isnt overly helpful here, America is unique - something they like to point out all the time.
Meh two sides of the same coin, although at least Sanders has basic principles.
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DSilva
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#62
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(Original post by Napp)
I'm becoming more and more tempted to buy you a dictionary. I have never expressed outrage at his choice of holiday. Stating a fact being a rather different thing.
And i find your fake outrage at Bloomberg baffling, so what? The fact remains he actually has experience of being a competent leader.

So what if they backed those two? A majority of Americans backed clinton and nearly half of Britains backed remain. Or is this your usual tolerance of dissent that seems to be typical of the faux outrage brigade these days.
You're more than welcome to disagree with its position what i find amusing is you disagreeing with its listing of facts.


Are you incapable of reading? Or are you simply fixated on rehashing the same point ad nauseum?


Good.

Possibly so but i maintain he stands a better chance than that blowhard sanders.
I'm fairly certain those who were harassed and humiliated because of Bloomberg's policies don't consider him competent. Nor all the women he pressured into signing NDAs.

You can't really complain about a lack of tolerance for dissent and then call someone you disagree with a left wing trump and quasi stalinist. That hardly seems tolerant on your part here.

Though, we should probably both take the tone down here.

I did read the Economist article. I don't agree with it's assessment of Sanders' policies or its positioning of them as hard left. I think it's also incredibly selective in what it picks out.

I don't agree either that he's a left wing Trump. You may dislike Sanders policies but he's been incredibly consistent and authentic over the past 40 years in his convictions. Trump has no convictions, he'll just do and say anything that favours him politically. Trump locks kids in cages, denies climate change and tried to ban Muslims from entering. Is that really comparable to Sanders?

You are perfectly entitled to disagree strongly with Sanders, but why does that make him unfit for office? What are these big scandals, akin to Trump's actions in his personal life, that make him unsuitable? Is only someone that you agree with suitable for office? The fact that people resort to mentioning his holiday destination shows they are somewhat scraping the barrel to dig up some dirt.

Well let's see how Biden does. Of course I want him to win.
Last edited by DSilva; 1 month ago
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#63
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#63
(Original post by Ascend)
Please do enlighten us on how liberals don't oppose Trump's agenda?

Trumpism is about as far removed from a liberal democratic agenda (both domestic re: institutions/rule of law and foreign re: isolationism vs internationalism) than any major political movement the US has seen. The divide goes right at the heart of America's founding by those old bloody libs and their hilariously cold French takes.
I mean, firstly it's important to understand that liberals are not in any way left wing or progressive, but more over they only oppose Trumps agenda in as much as it is change. They oppose the kids in cages not because it is morally deprave but because it should be families in cages like under Obama - hence why Biden doesn't stand for an end to ICE or the government's immigration enforcement or policy. In fact, more over what does Biden actually stand for? Warren and Sanders have clear progressive platforms, while Biden appears to have no platform besides "I'm not Trump"
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Ascend
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
I mean, firstly it's important to understand that liberals are not in any way left wing or progressive, but more over they only oppose Trumps agenda in as much as it is change. They oppose the kids in cages not because it is morally deprave but because it should be families in cages like under Obama - hence why Biden doesn't stand for an end to ICE or the government's immigration enforcement or policy. In fact, more over what does Biden actually stand for? Warren and Sanders have clear progressive platforms, while Biden appears to have no platform besides "I'm not Trump"
Supporting immigration control =/= putting families in cages. Americans do not want an end to immigration control.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/u...migration.html

As for his platform:

https://www.politico.com/2020-electi...ues/joe-biden/
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Napp
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#65
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(Original post by DSilva)
I'm fairly certain those who were harassed and humiliated because of Bloomberg's policies don't consider him competent. Nor all the women he pressured into signing NDAs.
A tiny minority. Considering most would outweigh it in terms of crime prevention it would seem a worthy price to pay
Npow you're really digging. He hardly held a gun to their head and its standard practice to sign them.
You can't really complain about a lack of tolerance for dissent and then call someone you disagree with a left wing trump and quasi stalinist. That hardly seems tolerant on your part here.
I never claimed to be though?
Though, we should probably both take the tone down here.
It would likely be more productive.
I did read the Economist article. I don't agree with it's assessment of Sanders' policies or its positioning of them as hard left. I think it's also incredibly selective in what it picks out.
It doesnt seem that selective to me, it notes several good policies ( in particular in foreign policy) it merely takes umbrage with his dubious economic actions.
I don't agree either that he's a left wing Trump. You may dislike Sanders policies but he's been incredibly consistent and authentic over the past 40 years in his convictions. Trump has no convictions, he'll just do and say anything that favours him politically. Trump locks kids in cages, denies climate change and tried to ban Muslims from entering. Is that really comparable to Sanders?
When one said opposite side of the same coin i meant he's a populist albeit a leftwing one.
In fairness i believe Obama did that to. However Sanders takes the opposite extreme - especially in giving free health care to illegals which is something most americans find abhorrent.
As i said earlier Sanders does have principle, i will grant him that. Although some of his policies he has shamelessly taken from other candidates like Warren.
You are perfectly entitled to disagree strongly with Sanders, but why does that make him unfit for office? What are these big scandals, akin to Trump's actions in his personal life, that make him unsuitable? Is only someone that you agree with suitable for office? The fact that people resort to mentioning his holiday destination shows they are somewhat scraping the barrel to dig up some dirt.
Because he is far too divisive for the electorate (not to say Trump is much btter) but it seems apodictic that if he were somehow to win he would further divide the country.
No, not at all. Sanders is unsuitable for many reasons; his fanciful policies, his lack of experience, his laziness in his career and so on.
Again please stop rattling on about that comment, i never once said it made him unsuitable for office - it is however a reason many americans dislike him in that he supports Americas enemies.
Well let's see how Biden does. Of course I want him to win.
Hope springs eternal but alas i doubt it.
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Ascend
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#66
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#66
Stiff Little Fingers DSilva

Speaking of Obama, it seems that idealistic progressives in a liberal democracy often forget that they don't live in an autocracy where their favoured lifelong backbencher socialist would somehow have absolute power to enact his/her platform. There are such things as separations of powers and, with that, an opposition will always hold sway while being severely limited by a constitution. Obama faced 6 years of a viciously (but democratically elected) Republican-controlled house and, frankly, it's quite astonishing that he managed to achieve anything at all (not that he achieved much).

Pragmatism seems to be completely lost on radical progressives. But I am of course very glad that they exist for pushing the boundaries for actual (potential) progress to pass through by the more politically savvy moderates, as slow and arduous as it may be.
Last edited by Ascend; 1 month ago
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Ascend
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#67
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#68
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(Original post by Ascend)
Supporting immigration control =/= putting families in cages. Americans do not want an end to immigration control.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/u...migration.html

As for his platform:

https://www.politico.com/2020-electi...ues/joe-biden/
Supporting nothing more than a return to the policies of Obama does though.

Given his voting history I don't believe for a second Biden actually wants to end things like the cocaine sentencing disparity, and more over how is he going to achieve it? He's nothing more than a senile sexual predator like Trump, only he's very clearly from the establishment and plays right into trump's hands.
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QE2
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#69
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(Original post by Napp)
You should probably crack open your dictionary and look up what "quasi" means, there was a good reason i put it on the front.
Just done that, and according to the OED, "quasi" does not mean "not" or "isn't".
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QE2
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#70
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(Original post by Occitanie)
If Boris vs Corbyn is any indication of how the general population in the UK decides between a neo-Con and a Socialist.

Trump vs Sanders can only go one way if you ask me: Trump.
The UK election wasn't about socialism v Neo-Con. It was about racism & xenophobia v whatever the opposite is. It turns out that so called socialists will happily abandon their principles if it means sorting out those bloody foreigners.
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QE2
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#71
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(Original post by DSilva)
Because choosing Clinton worked out so well for the Dems.
To be fair, she did get several million more votes that Trump, but the US has that arcane and anachronistic EC system where some votes count more than others.
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QE2
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#72
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(Original post by HurtOnAllLevels)
America’s founders were emphatically not liberals. They were slave owners for a start.
"Liberal" is a relative term.
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DSilva
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#73
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(Original post by Ascend)
Stiff Little Fingers DSilva

Speaking of Obama, it seems that idealistic progressives in a liberal democracy often forget that they don't live in an autocracy where their favoured lifelong backbencher socialist would somehow have absolute power to enact his/her platform. There are such things as separations of powers and, with that, an opposition will always hold sway while being severely limited by a constitution. Obama faced 6 years of a viciously (but democratically elected) Republican-controlled house and, frankly, it's quite astonishing that he managed to achieve anything at all (not that he achieved much).

Pragmatism seems to be completely lost on radical progressives. But I am of course very glad that they exist for pushing the boundaries for actual (potential) progress to pass through by the more politically savvy moderates, as slow and arduous as it may be.
Trump doesn't compromise.

As Bill Maher said, the problem is that the Dmecorats are always willing to meet the Republicans half way. The Republicans just do what they want.
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Occitanie
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#74
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(Original post by QE2)
The UK election wasn't about socialism v Neo-Con. It was about racism & xenophobia v whatever the opposite is. It turns out that so called socialists will happily abandon their principles if it means sorting out those bloody foreigners.
Absolute nonsense.
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Occitanie
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#75
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(Original post by QE2)
To be fair, she did get several million more votes that Trump, but the US has that arcane and anachronistic EC system where some votes count more than others.
And surely you know why the EC exists??
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QE2
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#76
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(Original post by Occitanie)
Absolute nonsense.
So how do you explain so many traditional Labour voters, in areas that will be hardest hit by a hard-right Tory government and leaving the EU, voting for an unashamedly hard right Tory government, and explicitly saying that it was Brexit that caused them to vote Tory?
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QE2
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#77
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(Original post by Occitanie)
And surely you know why the EC exists??
I know why it was implemented, but not why it still exists.
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82134
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#78
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#78
Trump is delivering his promises


Building wall

Leaving Afganistan (14 month plan to leave)
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Smack
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#79
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Clinton vs Trump, Corbyn vs May, Corbyn vs Johnson, Bernie/Biden/maybe even Bloomberg vs Trump... why are voters both sides of the pond being provided with such poor options to vote for lately?
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SaDe7
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#80
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Keep America Great for four more years!!!
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