Tory government simply not bothered enough to act

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Fullofsurprises
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I've been reviewing the UK's actions all day and comparing them with other countries.

Across Europe, governments are rushing through new emergency hospital builds; closing down public gatherings, schools, colleges and workplaces; shutting down public transport and closing borders.

Compare and contrast with the UK where apart from some gentle advice to remain at home if you have a fever and a bad cough, as far as we can tell, almost nothing is being done. The crucial challenge of expanding NHS provision is not being met. The government have said they will release emergency funds, but in practise they are all hedged around with various restrictions and so far, predictably, it is impossible to find out when they will be accessed. Doctors are telling everyone they can that a calamity is about to land but the Tory Party in office (actually just the Vote Leave leadership) ain't listening. Even Jeremy Hunt has turned against the PM, lecturing him daily on what is needed and being ignored.

Beneath the usual Johnson bluster, the hard truth is that he and his fellow ministers simply do not care if 5 or even 10m British people die. They are not interested. They of course will have access to the finest medical care, secretively delivered perhaps by military doctors. The rest of us can go hang.

Eton Toryism at work.

I hope everyone who voted for Johnson lives, but quite a number are going to think, in the coming days, "why did I ever support that clueless, lazy, self-serving, dimwitted cynical *******?".
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ecolier
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
....
Read this post which I wholehearted agree with:

(Original post by Lionheartat20)
The alternative to attempting to wipe this out and stop the spread of disease by aggressive quarantine is to achieve herd immunity. The latter is effectively Boris Johnson's Policy. That will take around 80-95% of the population to build immunity to the illness. For a highly infectious disease, this is closer to the 95% e.g. Measles.

Therefore Boris is saying we'll take the hit and let's get 90% of the country infected and we will then be immune. Albeit spread it out over 3 or 4 months to try to give the NHS some breathing room.
This would be estimating 45-55 million people within the UK to be infected. Resulting in deaths of around 500,000 within the U.K. The legality of accepting deaths to aim for herd immunity is highly questionable in the name of gross negligence manslaughter, which I have seen raised elsewhere already.

I would rather take the Chinese approach (and the rest of the World) and shut down infrastructure / quarantine etc. They'll get a vaccine eventually which gets around the whole herd immunity / re-infection into society problem. Their approach avoids intentionally killing 1% of our population whilst we might get a slightly better GDP U.K. economic figure for our extra deaths.

#Hugely Cynical of UK Approach

Source confirming that we plan to happily allow most of our population to be infected: https://www.ft.com/content/38a81588-...3-fe4680ea68b5
If the link is restricted, use our favourite search Engine with phrase "UK herd immunity coronavirus" and 3rd option down is FT, which gave me free access to the article in full.

No wonder we aren't bothering with FFP3 masks in A&E. The whole intention is to get the infection.....
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hotchocolate66
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I dont like him or the Tories but you are completely wrong. What you are suggesting is proven as an ineffective measure. Closure of all buildings, schools etc will not help. Temporary self isolation can contain it but not stop it from spreading. We will be back to square one once everyone comes out of containment and the virus begins to spread again.

Also, China is lying.
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Fullofsurprises
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Oh and let's not forget the Vote Leave government's best friend Donald - he is like a shining light of truthiness in a dark and forbidding world.

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ecolier
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(Original post by hotchocolate66)
I dont like him or the Tories but you are completely wrong. What you are suggesting is proven as an ineffective measure. Closure of all buildings, schools etc will not help. Temporary self isolation can contain it but not stop it from spreading. We will be back to square one once everyone comes out of containment and the virus begins to spread again.
But hopefully we'll be much closer to a vaccine by then...

We don't need to intentionally sacrifice a proportion of the population to develop a natural immunity to this, just to prop up the economy.

Also, China is lying.
Ok, what about HK, Singapore, South Korea etc. etc.

All these "lock down" regions are now reporting a slowing down of new cases.
Last edited by ecolier; 2 weeks ago
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by hotchocolate66)
I dont like him or the Tories but you are completely wrong. What you are suggesting is proven as an ineffective measure. Closure of all buildings, schools etc will not help. Temporary self isolation can contain it but not stop it from spreading. We will be back to square one once everyone comes out of containment and the virus begins to spread again.

Also, China is lying.
Closure of schools is arguably a negative given that many of the parents will be vital health workers. But there is NO excuse for leaving open mass gathering events where people are in close proximity and for not taking much more aggressive measures on widespread testing. Above all, we are going to need massive expansion of healthcare facilities and the government are doing sweet fa on that.
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hotchocolate66
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(Original post by ecolier)
But hopefully we'll be much closer to a vaccine by then...

We don't need to intentionally sacrifice a proportion of the population to develop a natural immunity to this, just to prop up the economy.
It is not causing deaths. The media is blowing this out of proportion. The people who are dying are the elderly with multiple illnesses. They contracted the virus and that was it. Their immune system couldn't handle it.
The younger people are not in danger as the immunity in them is pretty much strong and they can recover.
Its technically a flu and considering that the victims of the virus are recovering and some have already recovered, it is not that dangerous as the media is making this out to be. There is a lot of misinformation and rumours floating around which is sending everyone into a panic mode.

Tbh he cant do anything. He cant close all universities and hospitals and everything else. The entire system will collapse.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by ecolier)
Read this post which I wholehearted agree with:
The herd immunity programme (which basically involves the involuntary sacrifice of 10% of the population while we keep our fingers crossed and hope for a vaccine) sounds suspiciously fascistic and eugenicist, which is perhaps not surprising given that we know Boris appointed a eugenicist as his right hand man and bag carrier in chief.
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hotchocolate66
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(Original post by ecolier)
But hopefully we'll be much closer to a vaccine by then...

We don't need to intentionally sacrifice a proportion of the population to develop a natural immunity to this, just to prop up the economy.



Ok, what about HK, Singapore, South Korea etc. etc.

All these "lock down" regions are now reporting a slowing down of new cases.
All those countries are the source of it. They are not truthful. I have a friend in China and she told me that the government is lying about slowing it down.
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ecolier
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(Original post by hotchocolate66)
It is not causing deaths...
The above sentence literally contradicts with the sentence below.

The people who are dying are the elderly with multiple illnesses. They contracted the virus and that was it. Their immune system couldn't handle it.
And you think that's OK? Just let them die because of this because they somehow deserve this?!

The younger people are not in danger as the immunity in them is pretty much strong and they can recover.
Its technically a flu and considering that the victims of the virus are recovering and some have already recovered, it is not that dangerous as the media is making this out to be. There is a lot of misinformation and rumours floating around which is sending everyone into a panic mode.
I work in a hospital. I know what it's like. Plenty of young people have it as well - the mortality rate for young people is at least 25x higher than seasonal flu.

How often do you hear famous celebrities / partner of head of state / football manager and coaches etc. having the flu?
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by hotchocolate66)
It is not causing deaths. The media is blowing this out of proportion. The people who are dying are the elderly with multiple illnesses. They contracted the virus and that was it. Their immune system couldn't handle it.
The younger people are not in danger as the immunity in them is pretty much strong and they can recover.
Its technically a flu and considering that the victims of the virus are recovering and some have already recovered, it is not that dangerous as the media is making this out to be. There is a lot of misinformation and rumours floating around which is sending everyone into a panic mode.

Tbh he cant do anything. He cant close all universities and hospitals and everything else. The entire system will collapse.
A fair number of younger people are getting it in Italy.

It isn't a moral position to say "it only kills old people so why worry". Over 70s deserve to have a government that at least makes some kind of effort to protect them. This one is saying **** them.
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Fullofsurprises
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Republicans in the US Senate booking a few days off rather than deal with the crisis.
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/gop...irus-response/

Time to head for the hills.

Not one of these lawmakers would have a seat if they didn't get many thousands of blue collar working class votes. Those poor suckers simply have no idea what they are voting for.
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hotchocolate66
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
A fair number of younger people are getting it in Italy.

It isn't a moral position to say "it only kills old people so why worry". Over 70s deserve to have a government that at least makes some kind of effort to protect them. This one is saying **** them.
According to you Italy should have slowed down? It went on a lockdown. So why are young people still getting it?.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by hotchocolate66)
According to you Italy should have slowed down? It went on a lockdown. So why are young people still getting it?.
They went on lockdown late in the day. We have had earlier warning, but blew the advantage because our government were too lazy and indifferent. Johnson could not be engaged for the last few weeks because he was finishing a book that he would get penalised on if he delivered it late.
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hotchocolate66
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(Original post by ecolier)
The above sentence literally contradicts with the sentence below.



And you think that's OK? Just let them die because of this because they somehow deserve this?!



I work in a hospital. I know what it's like. Plenty of young people have it as well - the mortality rate for young people is at least 25x higher than seasonal flu.

How often do you hear famous celebrities / partner of head of state / football manager and coaches etc. having the flu?
So what should one do? Let kids and their parents/NHS staff stay at home and contract it as well?!

This is a new strain of virus that's why its overblown. Otherwise it was just a regular virus causing flu, nobody would even care.
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ecolier
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(Original post by hotchocolate66)
So what should one do? Let kids and their parents/NHS staff stay at home and contract it as well?!
Well reducing travel and not confiscating masks from the wards would be a good start. They are literally letting the NHS workers get it, and then spread it in the community.

This is a new strain of virus that's why its overblown. Otherwise it was just a regular virus causing flu, nobody would even care.
And you say this as an epidemiologist? An infectious diseases doctor?

We should practise a full lock down, reduce travel and protect the elderly. We should not let it spread unchecked in the community, and "aim for 60% infection rate". That's just ridiculous.
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Fullofsurprises
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nathan_nacu
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(Original post by hotchocolate66)
So what should one do? Let kids and their parents/NHS staff stay at home and contract it as well?!

This is a new strain of virus that's why its overblown. Otherwise it was just a regular virus causing flu, nobody would even care.
Well idk about you but I don’t think sacrificing 500,000 ppl sounds ethically sound, not to mention there’s no such thing as immunity to a virus (as far as I’m aware you can’t cure viruses you can only suppress them, hence why no cure for flu). Literally everyone has the flu so where’s the herd immunity there? idk this is all rather confusing
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Treetop321
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It's about money vs lives.

We could lose 3% from the UK GDP by closing schools, but we could lose so many lives by keeping them open. We can restore our GDP, we can't restore lives.
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hotchocolate66
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(Original post by ecolier)
Well reducing travel and not confiscating masks from the wards would be a good start. They are literally letting the NHS workers get it, and then spread it in the community.



And you say this as an epidemiologist? An infectious diseases doctor?
If you read about coronavirus on WHO, you would know it's a new strain.. And if you studied pathogen and infectious diseases management then you would know that no lockdown will stop the spread of the virus. It can temporarily halt it but once everything else resumes, it will start spreading even faster.

You arent bright. Italy did a lockdown. Still gets the virus. It won't help.
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