Man who killed armed robber in his Glasgow home is jailed

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Minxel
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#61
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#61
(Original post by joey11223)
17 is quite a large number but as said there would be a tremendous amount of adrenaline involved. Also if the men were grappling each other for some time I can quite easily imagine a significant number of shallow "stabs" could occur before a couple of deeper wounds incapacitated the attacker. Even stab wounds in the back don't necessarily mean the man acted beyond self defence, his free arm could have ended up behind the man at one point then he jabbed it into his back multiple times to get free from him for instance. For me it would depend if forensics could show multiple stab wounds occurred when the man was already on the ground and/or if a significant number of them were deep enough to cause quick incapacitation, if they couldn't, I wouldn't say it was necessarily excessive.

In general though, I very incredibly little empathy for the burglar/mugger/attacker etc. If you go into someone else's home with a weapon and threaten them and their family, the flight aspect of fight or flight is negated as they're likely trapped in the situation. That person is probably going to freeze/comply or fight you to save their/their families lives. I don't think disproportionate force is an unexpected or unreasonable response when the victim genuinely believes you may kill them/their partner or children. If someone broke into my house and threatened me/my wife if we didn't give them material goods/cash, I would probably just let them take the items, as things can be replaced. But if despite this they assaulted us or for instance I believed they were going to rape my partner, I would clearly attempt to take them down before that happened, and I'm not going to carefully consider the minimum damage I can do to get them immobile. I'm going to batter/stab them to the ground, and realistically I'm probably going to hit them a couple more times to ensure they're not getting up while I call the police. I think that's fairly reasonable tbh.
Best comment here and the most realistic.
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StriderHort
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#62
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(Original post by 999tigger)
Fair enough, but wont work with all circumstances.
Oh nothing will.

But it's my goto home defence, I have a bunch of knives and swords kicking about the place as display/utility items, but i'd be v loathe to use them. They really need skills I don't have, carry nasty consequences and tbh i'm squemish over sticking people. A crowbar? I'm well comfy with them from work and can accurately plant them at speed, if i avoid the head they'll live.

I've had a few home invasions, ie not burglars, people meaning specific harm, so i'm a bit cautious now, in the way that someone might never appreciate insurance til after they've been robbed a few times.and then always swear by it.
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TCA2b
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#63
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(Original post by AnonymousNoMore)
Ok, I respect your decision making. Well I would if it didn't involve killing someone, but I'll try to.
Killing someone... violating your home. Let's not forget that part. Risk that the burglar is knowingly assuming.
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Moose-er
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#64
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#64
Personally I think that if some one violates a person's private property and the safety of that person and/or that person's family, then that someone is fair game. Legally speaking, the man did break the law via usage of excessive force but then again Britan isn't exactly known for having good self defence laws.
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StriderHort
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#65
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(Original post by Moose-er)
Personally I think that if some one violates a person's private property and the safety of that person and/or that person's family, then that someone is fair game. Legally speaking, the man did break the law via usage of excessive force but then again Britan isn't exactly known for having good self defence laws.
What if you tie them to a chair and torture them for weeks before killing them? What exactly is 'fair game'? When does defense become the excuse for a bigger crime?
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goggleyed
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#66
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(Original post by Bio 7)
17 stab wounds is self defence? You have a few anger issues there then 17 is beyond overkill.
the average person would have anger issues if someone broke into their home and threatened to kill their family. I guess you're just a doormat who would happily bend over and submit to the robber.
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goggleyed
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#67
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the man should be given a medal
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goggleyed
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#68
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(Original post by StriderHort)
What if you tie them to a chair and torture them for weeks before killing them? What exactly is 'fair game'? When does defense become the excuse for a bigger crime?
lol so many doormats here, wtf??
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YaliaV
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#69
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#69
17 times? Come on now.
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Bio 7
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#70
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(Original post by goggleyed)
the average person would have anger issues if someone broke into their home and threatened to kill their family. I guess you're just a doormat who would happily bend over and submit to the robber.
No but I wouldn’t be stabbing them 17 times. There is a difference between reasonable force and blind rage.
You sound a little defensive.
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ThiagoBrigido
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#71
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#71
(Original post by StriderHort)
What if you tie them to a chair and torture them for weeks before killing them? What exactly is 'fair game'? When does defense become the excuse for a bigger crime?
Perhaps serve him some electrocute meal.

(Original post by goggleyed)
the average person would have anger issues if someone broke into their home and threatened to kill their family. I guess you're just a doormat who would happily bend over and submit to the robber.
Finally some common sense!

(Original post by YaliaV)
17 times? Come on now.
Obviously the poor convicted guy was under a lot of stress, everyone will respond differently to that kind of situation. Some would turn into a cockroach and even shine the burglar's shoes, others would just defend theirselves at all cost.
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AnonymousNoMore
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#72
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(Original post by TCA2b)
Killing someone... violating your home. Let's not forget that part. Risk that the burglar is knowingly assuming.
No they don't, they can be thought of as expecting to be attacked in self defense or face legal reprucoutions not be stabbed 17 times and mostly in the back.
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Mustafa0605
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#73
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#73
17 times stabbing is too much.
Last edited by Mustafa0605; 2 days ago
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fallen_acorns
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#74
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The idea that you have your wife/kids to protect from a man threatening to kill them... and in the rush of the moment of fighting for yours and their lives... you stop and think

'Wait, have I stabbed him 5 or 8 times... I don't want to loose track and get caught out'

---

As far as I'm concerned if someone breaks into your home, threatens your family and wants to kill your stuff, you should have the right to defend yourself, to the extent of killing them. I know that's not how the law works in the UK..
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StriderHort
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#75
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(Original post by goggleyed)
lol so many doormats here, wtf??
I'm a doormat because I would only disable them over intentionally killing them? Strange definition.

Kill an intruder by accident during reasonable self defence?, I got no problem with. Making a choice to kill them is murder, or if you can claim a defence of extreme stress, manslaughter.

(Original post by fallen_acorns)
As far as I'm concerned if someone breaks into your home, threatens your family and wants to kill your stuff, you should have the right to defend yourself, to the extent of killing them. I know that's not how the law works in the UK..
You do have a right to defend yourself, the court also has a right to challenge you to justify it, this guy couldn't do that (likely due to the overkill) and I suspect whatever past relationship he had with the guy has complications.
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Ascend
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
and in the rush of the moment of fighting for yours and their lives... you stop and think
Yes, that is the ideal. We are, after all, trying to distinguish ourselves from other animals. Exercising some semblance of rationality in a crisis is a virtue we should all aspire to achieve. I can understand if, in the heat of the moment, this is lost. What I don't get is the glorification of losing such control by those here who are commenting after-the-fact.

Maybe we need to have mandatory self-defence classes.
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TCA2b
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#77
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(Original post by AnonymousNoMore)
No they don't, they can be thought of as expecting to be attacked in self defense or face legal reprucoutions not be stabbed 17 times and mostly in the back.
What if one stab killed them? Then what? Fact of the matter is, when you are violating someone's home, you can expect to be attacked and potentially killed in the process, if not maimed. This act of violating their home could and probably would also trigger a fit of rage, resulting in being stabbed 17 times, be it in the back or elsewhere.

And also, on another note - why the **** should we care about what they "expect" anyway, when they don't give a toss about us? I expect not to have some arsewipe break into my house and attack me, and yet some people do that... so you'll forgive me for being rather unmoved by your rationalisation.
Last edited by TCA2b; 1 day ago
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Minxel
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#78
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(Original post by TCA2b)
What if one stab killed them? Then what? Fact of the matter is, when you are violating someone's home, you can expect to be attacked and potentially killed in the process, if not maimed. This act of violating their home could and probably would also trigger a fit of rage, resulting in being stabbed 17 times, be it in the back or elsewhere.

And also, on another note - why the **** should we care about what they "expect" anyway, when they don't give a toss about us? I expect not to have some arsewipe break into my house and attack me, and yet some people do that... so you'll forgive me for being rather unmoved by your rationalisation.
PRSOM or I would thumbs up this
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AnonymousNoMore
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#79
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(Original post by TCA2b)
What if one stab killed them? Then what? Fact of the matter is, when you are violating someone's home, you can expect to be attacked and potentially killed in the process, if not maimed. This act of violating their home could and probably would also trigger a fit of rage, resulting in being stabbed 17 times, be it in the back or elsewhere.

And also, on another note - why the **** should we care about what they "expect" anyway, when they don't give a toss about us? I expect not to have some arsewipe break into my house and attack me, and yet some people do that... so you'll forgive me for being rather unmoved by your rationalisation.
I wouldn't mind if you stabbed them once and killed them, that's self defence. But 17 times goes beyond self defence into punishment/ rage. That's all I'm saying.
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Wōden
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#80
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#80
(Original post by Ferrograd)
Stabbing someone 17 times is not self defense. Stab them once or twice, but if they're down you don't keep stabbing them. All for self defense but that doesnt constitute it.
It can be, depending on the circumstances. A person pumped up on adrenaline, drunk or high on drugs (or all of the above) can get stabbed multiple times without going down and can still be a threat. We don't know the exact details of this case though so it's hard to give much of an opinion on the judgement, maybe he gave one initial stab wound that put the intruder on the ground and then he continued stabbing, maybe he stabbed him in the back when he was trying to run away, those would usually constitute unreasonable force.
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