Misaela
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#1
Report Thread starter 11 months ago
#1
Are there any latter day saints here?
0
reply
jgcr2019
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#2
Report 11 months ago
#2
(Original post by Misaela)
Are there any latter day saints here?
I am Catholic. We don't consider Mormons as Christians as they are not baptized in the "the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost", so they did not believe in a trinitarian God nor do they believe in the full humanity or divinity of Christ.
0
reply
Misaela
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#3
Report Thread starter 11 months ago
#3
(Original post by jgcr2019)
I am Catholic. We don't consider Mormons as Christians as they are not baptized in the "the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost", so they did not believe in a trinitarian God nor do they believe in the full humanity or divinity of Christ
How do you know? Have you experienced it yourself or are you just doing this based on what you've heard and think.
0
reply
Misaela
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#4
Report Thread starter 11 months ago
#4
Also can you explain what you mean with trinitarian god?
0
reply
Misaela
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#5
Report Thread starter 11 months ago
#5
First of what does it mean to be Christian what makes you christian?
0
reply
dumpling_eater
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#6
Report 11 months ago
#6
(Original post by jgcr2019)
I am Catholic. We don't consider Mormons as Christians as they are not baptized in the "the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost", so they did not believe in a trinitarian God nor do they believe in the full humanity or divinity of Christ.
Also Catholic! It's true. One of the utmost fundamental beliefs of Christianity is the belief in the doctrine of the Trinity, aka Trinitarianism. This means that God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit are all three divine persons in one god and form together the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each God, HOWEVER God the Father is NOT God the Son, God the Son is NOT God the Holy Spirit, etc. etc.

This figure better illustrates what the doctrine means:
Image
"First of what does it mean to be Christian what makes you christian?
Also can you explain what you mean with trinitarian god?"

To disregard or reject the fundamental belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is to reject Christianity. As this article puts it, Mormon theology preaches and believes that Jesus Christ is an individual being, separate from God the Father in corporeality and substance, which obviously is a rejection of Trinitarianism and belief in the Trinity. The article (written by Gerald McDermott, a practicing Mormon) further states that, "Mormons do not accept the phrase in the Nicene Creed that describes the Father and Son as being “of one substance,” nor do we accept subsequent creeds by ecumenical councils that sought to clarify the nature of the Trinity in language describing them as one indivisible spiritual being."

In addition to this, as this article puts it, Mormons believe that God the Father was once a man and that he then progressed to godhood (that is, he is a now-exalted, immortal man with a flesh-and-bone body). (1 – ESV Study Bible article on religious cults). According to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Doctrine and Covenants, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also;” but “The Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.”

Christianity believes that only Jesus Christ was sent down from Heaven and became man (having tangible flesh and bone, as part of his humanity) to bring forth the union of Christ's humanity and God's divinity in one hypostatic union (aka individual existence). Neither God the Father nor God the Holy Spirit ever became man.

Many mainstream and side stream Christian churches, from the nondenominational megachurches to the Roman Catholic church to Presbyterians and Anglicans, widely agree that belief in the Holy Trinity is fundamental to the Christian faith and Christian identity.

What are considered the Three Core Doctrines of Christianity include:
  1. Apostles' Creed (an early statement of Christian belief -- it's argued that this creed was created by the Apostles under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, with each of the twelve contributing one of the articles)
  2. Nicene Creed (from the Councils of Nicaea)
  3. Athanasian Creed (written by Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria)

The 6 Branches of Christianity: Catholicism, Protestantism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Assyrians (and many of the denominations which derive their church from these big 6) widely accept the Three Core Doctrines (albeit with minor translation changes).

Belief in the Trinity is essential to Christianity. Mormon beliefs (especially the rejection of the Trinity) are antithetical to and directly contradict historic and key Christian doctrine and traditions.

Some still argue that, although Mormons are not Christian, they can still be "brothers and sisters in Christ." But I, and as many argue, reject this as one cannot be a "brother/sister in Christ" if one rejects/disregards key beliefs and doctrine that are critical to Christian beliefs, these beliefs upon which Jesus Christ built his church.
1
reply
jgcr2019
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#7
Report 11 months ago
#7
(Original post by Misaela)
How do you know? Have you experienced it yourself or are you just doing this based on what you've heard and think.
I think dumpling_eaters explains all of this very much in detail.

No hate though.
1
reply
jgcr2019
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#8
Report 11 months ago
#8
(Original post by dumpling_eater)
Also Catholic! It's true. One of the utmost fundamental beliefs of Christianity is the belief in the doctrine of the Trinity, aka Trinitarianism. This means that God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit are all three divine persons in one god and form together the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each God, HOWEVER God the Father is NOT God the Son, God the Son is NOT God the Holy Spirit, etc. etc.

This figure better illustrates what the doctrine means:
Image
"First of what does it mean to be Christian what makes you christian?
Also can you explain what you mean with trinitarian god?"

To disregard or reject the fundamental belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is to reject Christianity. As this article puts it, Mormon theology preaches and believes that Jesus Christ is an individual being, separate from God the Father in corporeality and substance, which obviously is a rejection of Trinitarianism and belief in the Trinity. The article (written by Gerald McDermott, a practicing Mormon) further states that, "Mormons do not accept the phrase in the Nicene Creed that describes the Father and Son as being “of one substance,” nor do we accept subsequent creeds by ecumenical councils that sought to clarify the nature of the Trinity in language describing them as one indivisible spiritual being."

In addition to this, as this article puts it, Mormons believe that God the Father was once a man and that he then progressed to godhood (that is, he is a now-exalted, immortal man with a flesh-and-bone body). (1 – ESV Study Bible article on religious cults). According to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Doctrine and Covenants, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also;” but “The Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.”

Christianity believes that only Jesus Christ was sent down from Heaven and became man (having tangible flesh and bone, as part of his humanity) to bring forth the union of Christ's humanity and God's divinity in one hypostatic union (aka individual existence). Neither God the Father nor God the Holy Spirit ever became man.

Many mainstream and side stream Christian churches, from the nondenominational megachurches to the Roman Catholic church to Presbyterians and Anglicans, widely agree that belief in the Holy Trinity is fundamental to the Christian faith and Christian identity.

What are considered the Three Core Doctrines of Christianity include:
  1. Apostles' Creed (an early statement of Christian belief -- it's argued that this creed was created by the Apostles under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, with each of the twelve contributing one of the articles)
  2. Nicene Creed (from the Councils of Nicaea)
  3. Athanasian Creed (written by Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria)

The 6 Branches of Christianity: Catholicism, Protestantism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Assyrians (and many of the denominations which derive their church from these big 6) widely accept the Three Core Doctrines (albeit with minor translation changes).

Belief in the Trinity is essential to Christianity. Mormon beliefs (especially the rejection of the Trinity) are antithetical to and directly contradict historic and key Christian doctrine and traditions.

Some still argue that, although Mormons are not Christian, they can still be "brothers and sisters in Christ." But I, and as many argue, reject this as one cannot be a "brother/sister in Christ" if one rejects/disregards key beliefs and doctrine that are critical to Christian beliefs, these beliefs upon which Jesus Christ built his church.
Thank you very much for explaining this with such detail! Pax et Bonum.
0
reply
Misaela
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#9
Report Thread starter 11 months ago
#9
(Original post by dumpling_eater)
Also Catholic! It's true. One of the utmost fundamental beliefs of Christianity is the belief in the doctrine of the Trinity, aka Trinitarianism. This means that God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit are all three divine persons in one god and form together the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each God, HOWEVER God the Father is NOT God the Son, God the Son is NOT God the Holy Spirit, etc. etc.

This figure better illustrates what the doctrine means:
Image
"First of what does it mean to be Christian what makes you christian?
Also can you explain what you mean with trinitarian god?"

To disregard or reject the fundamental belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is to reject Christianity. As this article puts it, Mormon theology preaches and believes that Jesus Christ is an individual being, separate from God the Father in corporeality and substance, which obviously is a rejection of Trinitarianism and belief in the Trinity. The article (written by Gerald McDermott, a practicing Mormon) further states that, "Mormons do not accept the phrase in the Nicene Creed that describes the Father and Son as being “of one substance,” nor do we accept subsequent creeds by ecumenical councils that sought to clarify the nature of the Trinity in language describing them as one indivisible spiritual being."

In addition to this, as this article puts it, Mormons believe that God the Father was once a man and that he then progressed to godhood (that is, he is a now-exalted, immortal man with a flesh-and-bone body). (1 – ESV Study Bible article on religious cults). According to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Doctrine and Covenants, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also;” but “The Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.”

Christianity believes that only Jesus Christ was sent down from Heaven and became man (having tangible flesh and bone, as part of his humanity) to bring forth the union of Christ's humanity and God's divinity in one hypostatic union (aka individual existence). Neither God the Father nor God the Holy Spirit ever became man.

Many mainstream and side stream Christian churches, from the nondenominational megachurches to the Roman Catholic church to Presbyterians and Anglicans, widely agree that belief in the Holy Trinity is fundamental to the Christian faith and Christian identity.

What are considered the Three Core Doctrines of Christianity include:
  1. Apostles' Creed (an early statement of Christian belief -- it's argued that this creed was created by the Apostles under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, with each of the twelve contributing one of the articles)
  2. Nicene Creed (from the Councils of Nicaea)
  3. Athanasian Creed (written by Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria)

The 6 Branches of Christianity: Catholicism, Protestantism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Assyrians (and many of the denominations which derive their church from these big 6) widely accept the Three Core Doctrines (albeit with minor translation changes).

Belief in the Trinity is essential to Christianity. Mormon beliefs (especially the rejection of the Trinity) are antithetical to and directly contradict historic and key Christian doctrine and traditions.

Some still argue that, although Mormons are not Christian, they can still be "brothers and sisters in Christ." But I, and as many argue, reject this as one cannot be a "brother/sister in Christ" if one rejects/disregards key beliefs and doctrine that are critical to Christian beliefs, these beliefs upon which Jesus Christ built his church.
Okat well latter day saints believe that only Christ was sent from heaven to earth. The part of heavenly father once being man is way before Chris r it's before the bible. But so what if they don't believe that the father, Jesus and the holy spirit aren't the same? I mean if they truly are how would God sent a bird went Christ was baptized. Latter day saints don't believe that they're the same person in corporeality and substance but latter day saints do believe that they have the same goal and that they preach the same thing and there for are the same person symbolically so they don't reheat that God is the same. How can you say that it's a key belief. Did Christ himself say that? And what exactly does it mean to be Christian. But if you still don't believe they're Christian then it's fine you should be happy that they're at least willing to believe in Christ and willing to work together
0
reply
Misaela
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#10
Report Thread starter 11 months ago
#10
(Original post by dumpling_eater)
Also Catholic! It's true. One of the utmost fundamental beliefs of Christianity is the belief in the doctrine of the Trinity, aka Trinitarianism. This means that God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit are all three divine persons in one god and form together the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each God, HOWEVER God the Father is NOT God the Son, God the Son is NOT God the Holy Spirit, etc. etc.

This figure better illustrates what the doctrine means:
Image
"First of what does it mean to be Christian what makes you christian?
Also can you explain what you mean with trinitarian god?"

To disregard or reject the fundamental belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is to reject Christianity. As this article puts it, Mormon theology preaches and believes that Jesus Christ is an individual being, separate from God the Father in corporeality and substance, which obviously is a rejection of Trinitarianism and belief in the Trinity. The article (written by Gerald McDermott, a practicing Mormon) further states that, "Mormons do not accept the phrase in the Nicene Creed that describes the Father and Son as being “of one substance,” nor do we accept subsequent creeds by ecumenical councils that sought to clarify the nature of the Trinity in language describing them as one indivisible spiritual being."

In addition to this, as this article puts it, Mormons believe that God the Father was once a man and that he then progressed to godhood (that is, he is a now-exalted, immortal man with a flesh-and-bone body). (1 – ESV Study Bible article on religious cults). According to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Doctrine and Covenants, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also;” but “The Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.”

Christianity believes that only Jesus Christ was sent down from Heaven and became man (having tangible flesh and bone, as part of his humanity) to bring forth the union of Christ's humanity and God's divinity in one hypostatic union (aka individual existence). Neither God the Father nor God the Holy Spirit ever became man.

Many mainstream and side stream Christian churches, from the nondenominational megachurches to the Roman Catholic church to Presbyterians and Anglicans, widely agree that belief in the Holy Trinity is fundamental to the Christian faith and Christian identity.

What are considered the Three Core Doctrines of Christianity include:
  1. Apostles' Creed (an early statement of Christian belief -- it's argued that this creed was created by the Apostles under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, with each of the twelve contributing one of the articles)
  2. Nicene Creed (from the Councils of Nicaea)
  3. Athanasian Creed (written by Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria)

The 6 Branches of Christianity: Catholicism, Protestantism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Assyrians (and many of the denominations which derive their church from these big 6) widely accept the Three Core Doctrines (albeit with minor translation changes).

Belief in the Trinity is essential to Christianity. Mormon beliefs (especially the rejection of the Trinity) are antithetical to and directly contradict historic and key Christian doctrine and traditions.

Some still argue that, although Mormons are not Christian, they can still be "brothers and sisters in Christ." But I, and as many argue, reject this as one cannot be a "brother/sister in Christ" if one rejects/disregards key beliefs and doctrine that are critical to Christian beliefs, these beliefs upon which Jesus Christ built his church.
Okay now explain humanity and divinity of Christ to me. Also they do baptize in the name of the father, of the son and of the holy ghost. They literally say it every time they baptize someone.
0
reply
Racresmol
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#11
Report 11 months ago
#11
(Original post by Misaela)
Are there any latter day saints here?
What makes you believe in Mormonism and reject other, more traditional, more widely accepted Christian denominations? How can it possibly be "better" than Catholicism, Anglicanism or Eastern Orthodoxy?
0
reply
dumpling_lover
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#12
Report 11 months ago
#12
(Original post by dumpling_eater)
Also Catholic! It's true. One of the utmost fundamental beliefs of Christianity is the belief in the doctrine of the Trinity, aka Trinitarianism. This means that God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit are all three divine persons in one god and form together the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each God, HOWEVER God the Father is NOT God the Son, God the Son is NOT God the Holy Spirit, etc. etc.

This figure better illustrates what the doctrine means:
Image
"First of what does it mean to be Christian what makes you christian?
Also can you explain what you mean with trinitarian god?"

To disregard or reject the fundamental belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is to reject Christianity. As this article puts it, Mormon theology preaches and believes that Jesus Christ is an individual being, separate from God the Father in corporeality and substance, which obviously is a rejection of Trinitarianism and belief in the Trinity. The article (written by Gerald McDermott, a practicing Mormon) further states that, "Mormons do not accept the phrase in the Nicene Creed that describes the Father and Son as being “of one substance,” nor do we accept subsequent creeds by ecumenical councils that sought to clarify the nature of the Trinity in language describing them as one indivisible spiritual being."

In addition to this, as this article puts it, Mormons believe that God the Father was once a man and that he then progressed to godhood (that is, he is a now-exalted, immortal man with a flesh-and-bone body). (1 – ESV Study Bible article on religious cults). According to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Doctrine and Covenants, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also;” but “The Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit.”

Christianity believes that only Jesus Christ was sent down from Heaven and became man (having tangible flesh and bone, as part of his humanity) to bring forth the union of Christ's humanity and God's divinity in one hypostatic union (aka individual existence). Neither God the Father nor God the Holy Spirit ever became man.

Many mainstream and side stream Christian churches, from the nondenominational megachurches to the Roman Catholic church to Presbyterians and Anglicans, widely agree that belief in the Holy Trinity is fundamental to the Christian faith and Christian identity.

What are considered the Three Core Doctrines of Christianity include:
  1. Apostles' Creed (an early statement of Christian belief -- it's argued that this creed was created by the Apostles under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, with each of the twelve contributing one of the articles)
  2. Nicene Creed (from the Councils of Nicaea)
  3. Athanasian Creed (written by Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria)

The 6 Branches of Christianity: Catholicism, Protestantism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Assyrians (and many of the denominations which derive their church from these big 6) widely accept the Three Core Doctrines (albeit with minor translation changes).

Belief in the Trinity is essential to Christianity. Mormon beliefs (especially the rejection of the Trinity) are antithetical to and directly contradict historic and key Christian doctrine and traditions.

Some still argue that, although Mormons are not Christian, they can still be "brothers and sisters in Christ." But I, and as many argue, reject this as one cannot be a "brother/sister in Christ" if one rejects/disregards key beliefs and doctrine that are critical to Christian beliefs, these beliefs upon which Jesus Christ built his church.
Is there any way you could make the picture smaller? I can't see all of it
0
reply
dumpling_eater
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#13
Report 11 months ago
#13
(Original post by Misaela)
Okay now explain humanity and divinity of Christ to me. Also they do baptize in the name of the father, of the son and of the holy ghost. They literally say it every time they baptize someone.
The Catholic Church (and other Christian Churches that affirm the Trinity) teaches that Jesus Christ was sent down from Heaven and became man (having tangible flesh and bone, as part of his humanity) to bring forth the union of Christ's humanity and God's divinity in one hypostatic union (aka individual existence). The duality of Jesus Christ refers to his two natures: divine and human. In Christ, the divine nature and human nature came together in union (a hypostatic union).

The Athanasian Creed (as I've mentioned before is one of the Three Core Doctrines of Christianity) is not only a Champion of the Trinity, but also recognizes the doctrine of the hypostatic union in Jesus Christ. It states that:

"He is God from the essence of the Father, begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity."

What the above basically says is that Jesus Christ is fully divine in nature due to him being God, which is derived from the essence of God the Father -- God the Father is fully and purely divine in nature. However, he is ALSO fully human in nature due to him being born from his mother (the Blessed Virgin Mary), who is fully human and was born in time -- she is fully human in nature. She is not a celestial being/deity/etc, but rather she's human in nature like us (except she was born without Original Sin, but that's a different discussion topic).

Although he is God and human, yet Christ is not two, but one. He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself. He is one, certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person. For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human."

This means that Jesus Christ is fully divine AND fully human, not half and half like a demigod from Greek/Roman mythology (e.g. Hercules, Perseus). In the same way the we, as humans, are BOTH soul and flesh, Jesus is BOTH God and Human.

The term hypostatic union comes from the term hypostasis (meaning the underlying state or underlying substance and is the fundamental reality that supports all else). It's used to term the description and reasoning of how Christ is fully human and fully divine in nature when he was incarnated. We firmly believe in the Incarnation, which is Church doctrine referring to the conception and birth of a sentient/celestial being who is the material manifestation of an entity/deity, god, or force whose original nature is immaterial (e.g. divine in nature - God the Father is fully and purely divine in nature). The Second Person of the Holy Trinity, God the Son (Jesus Christ), was incarnated and became flesh when he was miraculously conceive by the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The First Council of Nicaea (325 AD) discussed this topic, due in part because of rising heretical belief in Arianism (from Arius of Alexandria, who argued that Christ was a created being). The First Council of Nicaea, upon denouncing and condemning Arianism, concluded on the word hypostasis (derived from ὑπόστασις (“of one substance”) to signify the absolute equality of God the Son to God the Father.Jesus Christ is neither greater nor lesser in divinity than God the Father, but rather he is equal to God the Father and equal to God the Holy Spirit (as God the Holy Spirit is also equal to God the Father) -- this forms the foundations for the doctrine of the Trinity.
________________________________ _________________
As for why we baptize "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," this tradition is taken directly from biblical scripture in Matthew 28:19, which states, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit. Some argue that Christ said to the Apostles, especially in the Book of Acts (aka Acts of the Apostles), to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. HOWEVER, in actuality Christ commanded that the Apostle baptize specifically in the name "Yahshua" (which has been directly translated into Jesus Christ, but the allergorical meaning behind this is lost). This then plays into the belief of the Trinity.

Whenever God revealed himself as a pillar of fire, burning bush, dove, etc., he did not become another God or separate person right? These were "theophanies," which are God's manifestations visible to humankind. On multiple occasions God revealed himself as the Holy Spirit, sent the Holy Spirit in His name, etc. If the pillar of fire, burning bush, dove, voice of God are not to be considered "separate persons" then why would you consider the Holy Spirit as a separate person? The Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Trinity, is one theophany as it is one of the manifestations of God that have been revealed to mankind. Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, was sent to earth from heaven by God to save mankind -- he is the most perfect theophany (manifestation of God visible to us) and revelation of God because he is both fully human and fully divine (the bridge between God and Man).

Thus, when the disciples baptized using the name of "Yahshua," they used the specific name Yahshua (Jesus Christ) told them to use: the name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ came in his father's name, the Holy Spirit was sent in his name; everything done, such as the Sacrament of Baptism, was centered in God and His (God's) name. he Son’s name, and the Holy Spirit’s name. Belief in the Oneness of God and the Unity of God is necessary to fully accept this, and traditions that came out of church councils and “fathers” are what completely confused this issue, which to me in extremely obvious. When they baptized with the name of Yahshua, they were baptizing in the God the Father’s name, God the Son’s name, and God the Holy Spirit’s name because the name Yahshua represents God, including the three persons in one God (the Trinity).

The mystery of the Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian life and faith (according to the Catholic Church and other Christian denominations). The link I've hyperlinked is on the Catechism of the Catholic Church and is a great read for you if you're looking to understand more and have it explained in greater depth the Revelation of God as the Trinity, such as when God the Father was revealed by God the Son (Jesus Christ), as well as when God the Father and God the Son were revealed by the Holy Spirit.
0
reply
dumpling_eater
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#14
Report 11 months ago
#14
(Original post by Misaela)
How can you say that it's a key belief. Did Christ himself say that?
I've expanded on my explanation of the Trinity in my last post (in answering your questions about the human and divine natures of Christ) to better answer this. Please see the above post (#13).


(Original post by Misaela)
But if you still don't believe they're Christian then it's fine you should be happy that they're at least willing to believe in Christ and willing to work together
What do you mean?

"willing to believe in Christ"

By your definition and reasoning, this means that Jehovah's Witness, Mormonism, and Islam are all considered Christianity.

However, isn't it that Islam rejects that Christ is the Son of God? They further reject that Jesus Christ was crucified and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven; they instead believe that Jesus Christ was saved by God and that he is simply a prophet (rather than the Son of God) and they revere him like you would revere a saint or a prophet, honoring them and looking to them as role models and guides on how to live faithfully.

By your definition... if you argue to reject Islam as part of Christianity BUT you accept Jehovah's Witness and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, then wouldn't this be illogical? Because by your definition, anyone who believes in Christ is Christian. Muslims believe in Christ but they certainly do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was "crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven" (taken directly from the Nicene Creed).
0
reply
Greywolf.
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#15
Report 11 months ago
#15
(Original post by Misaela)
Also can you explain what you mean with trinitarian god?
If you don’t understand the trinity and claim to be a Christian, you aren’t a Christian to be honest
1
reply
Misaela
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#16
Report Thread starter 11 months ago
#16
(Original post by Greywolftwo)
If you don’t understand the trinity and claim to be a Christian, you aren’t a Christian to be honest
I don't understand it because I was never taught it I was taught about the godhead Instead of the trinity. And a christian is someone who follows the example of christ. Even if you don't think so the world is still going to labor is as christians. Because that's what we are. We speak of Christ and to most people out of the Christianity believe anyone who speaks of Christ is christian. I know that God exists I worship God the father. I also knows Christ exists he's the one that came to earth and I know the holy ghost exist he's the one that speaks to us and gives us our testimony and more of course. Also my main language isn't English so some terms I wasn't taught in english. For example at first I didn't know what the only begotten son meant but I knew it in my own language so I wanted someone to explain it to me.
0
reply
Misaela
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#17
Report Thread starter 11 months ago
#17
(Original post by dumpling_eater)
I've expanded on my explanation of the Trinity in my last post (in answering your questions about the human and divine natures of Christ) to better answer this. Please see the above post (#13).




What do you mean?

"willing to believe in Christ"

By your definition and reasoning, this means that Jehovah's Witness, Mormonism, and Islam are all considered Christianity.

However, isn't it that Islam rejects that Christ is the Son of God? They further reject that Jesus Christ was crucified and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven; they instead believe that Jesus Christ was saved by God and that he is simply a prophet (rather than the Son of God) and they revere him like you would revere a saint or a prophet, honoring them and looking to them as role models and guides on how to live faithfully.

By your definition... if you argue to reject Islam as part of Christianity BUT you accept Jehovah's Witness and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, then wouldn't this be illogical? Because by your definition, anyone who believes in Christ is Christian. Muslims believe in Christ but they certainly do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was "crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven" (taken directly from the Nicene Creed).
I mean that they're willing to accept Christ that he died for us and payed for our sin. They use the bible and maybe also other scriptures. Those who excepted Christ and are willing to follow his example not just acknowledging that he lived. I mean that they believe that Christ is our savior and that because of him we can baptize. And believe that he is the way. Do you understand what I want to say now?
0
reply
Misaela
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#18
Report Thread starter 11 months ago
#18
(Original post by dumpling_eater)
The Catholic Church (and other Christian Churches that affirm the Trinity) teaches that Jesus Christ was sent down from Heaven and became man (having tangible flesh and bone, as part of his humanity) to bring forth the union of Christ's humanity and God's divinity in one hypostatic union (aka individual existence). The duality of Jesus Christ refers to his two natures: divine and human. In Christ, the divine nature and human nature came together in union (a hypostatic union).

The Athanasian Creed (as I've mentioned before is one of the Three Core Doctrines of Christianity) is not only a Champion of the Trinity, but also recognizes the doctrine of the hypostatic union in Jesus Christ. It states that:

"He is God from the essence of the Father, begotten before time; and he is human from the essence of his mother, born in time; completely God, completely human, with a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as regards divinity, less than the Father as regards humanity."

What the above basically says is that Jesus Christ is fully divine in nature due to him being God, which is derived from the essence of God the Father -- God the Father is fully and purely divine in nature. However, he is ALSO fully human in nature due to him being born from his mother (the Blessed Virgin Mary), who is fully human and was born in time -- she is fully human in nature. She is not a celestial being/deity/etc, but rather she's human in nature like us (except she was born without Original Sin, but that's a different discussion topic).

Although he is God and human, yet Christ is not two, but one. He is one, however, not by his divinity being turned into flesh, but by God's taking humanity to himself. He is one, certainly not by the blending of his essence, but by the unity of his person. For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh, so too the one Christ is both God and human."

This means that Jesus Christ is fully divine AND fully human, not half and half like a demigod from Greek/Roman mythology (e.g. Hercules, Perseus). In the same way the we, as humans, are BOTH soul and flesh, Jesus is BOTH God and Human.

The term hypostatic union comes from the term hypostasis (meaning the underlying state or underlying substance and is the fundamental reality that supports all else). It's used to term the description and reasoning of how Christ is fully human and fully divine in nature when he was incarnated. We firmly believe in the Incarnation, which is Church doctrine referring to the conception and birth of a sentient/celestial being who is the material manifestation of an entity/deity, god, or force whose original nature is immaterial (e.g. divine in nature - God the Father is fully and purely divine in nature). The Second Person of the Holy Trinity, God the Son (Jesus Christ), was incarnated and became flesh when he was miraculously conceive by the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The First Council of Nicaea (325 AD) discussed this topic, due in part because of rising heretical belief in Arianism (from Arius of Alexandria, who argued that Christ was a created being). The First Council of Nicaea, upon denouncing and condemning Arianism, concluded on the word hypostasis (derived from ὑπόστασις (“of one substance”) to signify the absolute equality of God the Son to God the Father.Jesus Christ is neither greater nor lesser in divinity than God the Father, but rather he is equal to God the Father and equal to God the Holy Spirit (as God the Holy Spirit is also equal to God the Father) -- this forms the foundations for the doctrine of the Trinity.
________________________________ _________________
As for why we baptize "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," this tradition is taken directly from biblical scripture in Matthew 28:19, which states, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit. Some argue that Christ said to the Apostles, especially in the Book of Acts (aka Acts of the Apostles), to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ. HOWEVER, in actuality Christ commanded that the Apostle baptize specifically in the name "Yahshua" (which has been directly translated into Jesus Christ, but the allergorical meaning behind this is lost). This then plays into the belief of the Trinity.

Whenever God revealed himself as a pillar of fire, burning bush, dove, etc., he did not become another God or separate person right? These were "theophanies," which are God's manifestations visible to humankind. On multiple occasions God revealed himself as the Holy Spirit, sent the Holy Spirit in His name, etc. If the pillar of fire, burning bush, dove, voice of God are not to be considered "separate persons" then why would you consider the Holy Spirit as a separate person? The Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Trinity, is one theophany as it is one of the manifestations of God that have been revealed to mankind. Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, was sent to earth from heaven by God to save mankind -- he is the most perfect theophany (manifestation of God visible to us) and revelation of God because he is both fully human and fully divine (the bridge between God and Man).

Thus, when the disciples baptized using the name of "Yahshua," they used the specific name Yahshua (Jesus Christ) told them to use: the name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ came in his father's name, the Holy Spirit was sent in his name; everything done, such as the Sacrament of Baptism, was centered in God and His (God's) name. he Son’s name, and the Holy Spirit’s name. Belief in the Oneness of God and the Unity of God is necessary to fully accept this, and traditions that came out of church councils and “fathers” are what completely confused this issue, which to me in extremely obvious. When they baptized with the name of Yahshua, they were baptizing in the God the Father’s name, God the Son’s name, and God the Holy Spirit’s name because the name Yahshua represents God, including the three persons in one God (the Trinity).

The mystery of the Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian life and faith (according to the Catholic Church and other Christian denominations). The link I've hyperlinked is on the Catechism of the Catholic Church and is a great read for you if you're looking to understand more and have it explained in greater depth the Revelation of God as the Trinity, such as when God the Father was revealed by God the Son (Jesus Christ), as well as when God the Father and God the Son were revealed by the Holy Spirit.
What did he mean with latter day saints don't believe in the humanity and divinity of christ? I mean I get that he means with trinity now. It's because we believe in the godhead which is almost the same thing. Also latter day saints do baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Last edited by Misaela; 11 months ago
0
reply
otah007
Badges: 13
Rep:
?
#19
Report 11 months ago
#19
(Original post by dumpling_eater)
However, isn't it that Islam rejects that Christ is the Son of God? They further reject that Jesus Christ was crucified and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven; they instead believe that Jesus Christ was saved by God and that he is simply a prophet (rather than the Son of God) and they revere him like you would revere a saint or a prophet, honoring them and looking to them as role models and guides on how to live faithfully.
As a Muslim I can confirm that this is correct. To be specific, we believe that he was a messenger (a prophet with a scripture).

You said that you must believe in Trinity to be Christian. But how about e.g. Unitarian Christians, who align much more closely with Islam's view of Jesus (pbuh)? If they reject the conclusions drawn at the Council of Nicaea then who gives you (or anyone else) the authority to claim that they are "not Christian"? In Islam there is a very well-known saying of Muhammad (pbuh) which goes something like, "If a Muslim calls another a disbeliever, then if he is a disbeliever let it be so; otherwise, he [the caller] is himself a disbeliever." In other words, false accusations of disbelief are themselves actions of disbelief. Would it not be better if Christians also followed this rule?

I also am very confused about Trinity. You claim in multiple places that the Son is not the Father, both that both Son and Father are God. But (here the mathematician in me appears!) "to be" (i.e. "is") is a transitive relation - if A is B and B is C, then A is C. How can the Son be God, and God be the Father, but the Son and Father be different? How can one be 100% divine and 100% human if these things are fundamentally different?

Also, three more questions.
Firstly, if Jesus (pbuh) is divine, then how is his sacrifice on the crucifix a sacrifice - surely by being God he has nothing to lose, hence cannot sacrifice? And even if you can somehow reconcile this, if he knew he would rise then once again, how is it a sacrifice?
Secondly, how is original sin just? If God is just, then why do I inherit sin? How is it just or moral that I am held responsible (from birth, so even before I know right from wrong) for someone else's actions?
Thirdly, what's the point of doing anything at all if just believing in Christ's sacrifice is enough to save me? If he sacrificed himself for me, why is the effect of that sacrifice contingent on my belief in it, and why should I bother following anything else in the Bible?

I realise this is a lot but I can see that you are very knowledgeable and can hopefully answer some of these questions that most Christians struggle to explain well.
1
reply
Misaela
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#20
Report Thread starter 11 months ago
#20
(Original post by otah007)
As a Muslim I can confirm that this is correct. To be specific, we believe that he was a messenger (a prophet with a scripture).

You said that you must believe in Trinity to be Christian. But how about e.g. Unitarian Christians, who align much more closely with Islam's view of Jesus (pbuh)? If they reject the conclusions drawn at the Council of Nicaea then who gives you (or anyone else) the authority to claim that they are "not Christian"? In Islam there is a very well-known saying of Muhammad (pbuh) which goes something like, "If a Muslim calls another a disbeliever, then if he is a disbeliever let it be so; otherwise, he [the caller] is himself a disbeliever." In other words, false accusations of disbelief are themselves actions of disbelief. Would it not be better if Christians also followed this rule?

I also am very confused about Trinity. You claim in multiple places that the Son is not the Father, both that both Son and Father are God. But (here the mathematician in me appears!) "to be" (i.e. "is") is a transitive relation - if A is B and B is C, then A is C. How can the Son be God, and God be the Father, but the Son and Father be different? How can one be 100% divine and 100% human if these things are fundamentally different?

Also, three more questions.
Firstly, if Jesus (pbuh) is divine, then how is his sacrifice on the crucifix a sacrifice - surely by being God he has nothing to lose, hence cannot sacrifice? And even if you can somehow reconcile this, if he knew he would rise then once again, how is it a sacrifice?
Secondly, how is original sin just? If God is just, then why do I inherit sin? How is it just or moral that I am held responsible (from birth, so even before I know right from wrong) for someone else's actions?
Thirdly, what's the point of doing anything at all if just believing in Christ's sacrifice is enough to save me? If he sacrificed himself for me, why is the effect of that sacrifice contingent on my belief in it, and why should I bother following anything else in the Bible?

I realise this is a lot but I can see that you are very knowledgeable and can hopefully answer some of these questions that most Christians struggle to explain well.
I think it's a sacrifice because he never sinned. Being human have him the ability to die and pay and feel all of our pain. And being God made him be able to come back to live. I mean think about it if you had children and all sinned but one was obedient and always listened and he had to suffer in order for the others to not be in trouble anymore. Wouldn't it be a sacrifice. If he took all their punishments? Since he was the chosen one he knew that he couldn't afford to make mistakes or else none of us would be able to live with God and we'd have to live with Sat and forever to be his slaves. He was appointed to show us the way. You don't inherit sin you. Rather you have the ability to choose not to win or to do as you want a long with being aware of the consequence of each choice. Also those under the age of 8 are not considered to have dinner and therefore don't go to help no matter what religion if any their parents were part of. And through Christ we are able to be saved if we choose to follow the commandments. Strive to not so sin and if we do
sin that we repent. I mean if you baptise and you commit a murder I don't think you'll go to heaven. So it's trough your works and through the sacrifice that you can be saved. You baptize and then you follow Christs example for the rest of your life. Of course you still can have fun as long as it doesn't violate the rules. Well this is what I was thought and read from the scriptures I don't know what the other Christians were thought. Also I was thought that children should be baptize when the y are 8 because that when they start to change when they're younger they aren't aware of good and evil. Usually
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Would you consider Adjustment if your grades were higher than you expected?

Yes, I'd look at higher ranking universities than my current choices (125)
42.96%
Yes, I'd look for a course or uni that is a better fit for me (45)
15.46%
No, I'd stick with my current uni choice (116)
39.86%
Something else (let us know in the thread below!) (5)
1.72%

Watched Threads

View All