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limsup inequality

I need to show that limsup(an + bn) lim sup(an) + lim sup(bn) but my question is not actually how this is proved.

I have seen that when proving the identity lim sup an=− lim inf −an
many sources use the identity sup(A)= - inf(-A) where A is a bounded set
Here is one;
"Indeed, using sup(A) = inf({−a : a A}), which follows as if x is an upperbound for A, then −x is an lowerbound for {−a : a A}, and vice versa, we have lim sup an = limn→∞ sup{am : m > n} = limn→∞ inf{−am : m > n} = lim inf −an"

Now my question is that why can't we use the identity sup(A+B) = sup(A)+sup(B) to conclude that limsup(an + bn) "=" lim sup(an) + lim sup(bn) but instead the result is limsup(an + bn) lim sup(an) + lim sup(bn)... isn't sup{am+bm : m>n} taking the supremum of a set as well as sup{am : m > n} and sup{bm : m > n} just like the proof for lim sup an=− lim inf −an and use sup(A+B)=sup(A)+sup(B)
(edited 3 years ago)
Reply 1
Original post by Jack1255
I need to show that limsup(an + bn) lim sup(an) + lim sup(bn) but my question is not actually how this is proved.

I have seen that when proving the identity lim sup an=− lim inf −an
many sources use the identity sup(A)= - inf(-A) where A is a bounded set
Here is one;
"Indeed, using sup(A) = inf({−a : a A}), which follows as if x is an upperbound for A, then −x is an lowerbound for {−a : a A}, and vice versa, we have lim sup an = limn→∞ sup{am : m > n} = limn→∞ inf{−am : m > n} = lim inf −an"

Now my question is that why can't we use the identity sup(A+B) = sup(A)+sup(B) to conclude that limsup(an + bn) "=" lim sup(an) + lim sup(bn) but instead the result is limsup(an + bn) lim sup(an) + lim sup(bn)... isn't sup{am+bm : m>n} taking the supremum of a set as well as sup{am : m > n} and sup{bm : m > n} just like the proof for lim sup an=− lim inf −an and use sup(A+B)=sup(A)+sup(B)

sup(AB)=sup(A)+sup(B)\sup(A \cup B) = \sup(A) + \sup(B) is FALSE in general. For example, let A=B={1}A = B = \{1\}, then AB={1}A \cup B = \{1\} so sup(AB)=1\sup(A \cup B) = 1 but sup(A)+sup(B)=2\sup(A) + \sup(B) = 2.
Original post by Jack1255
I need to show that limsup(an + bn) lim sup(an) + lim sup(bn) but my question is not actually how this is proved.

I have seen that when proving the identity lim sup an=− lim inf −an
many sources use the identity sup(A)= - inf(-A) where A is a bounded set
Here is one;
"Indeed, using sup(A) = inf({−a : a A}), which follows as if x is an upperbound for A, then −x is an lowerbound for {−a : a A}, and vice versa, we have lim sup an = limn→∞ sup{am : m > n} = limn→∞ inf{−am : m > n} = lim inf −an"

Now my question is that why can't we use the identity sup(A+B) = sup(A)+sup(B) to conclude that limsup(an + bn) "=" lim sup(an) + lim sup(bn) but instead the result is limsup(an + bn) lim sup(an) + lim sup(bn)... isn't sup{am+bm : m>n} taking the supremum of a set as well as sup{am : m > n} and sup{bm : m > n} just like the proof for lim sup an=− lim inf −an and use sup(A+B)=sup(A)+sup(B)


For a counterexample to equality

let (an)(a_n) be the sequence

0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,...

and let (bn)(b_n) be the sequence

1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,...

Edit: I suspect you were unconsciously assuming the sequences converged.
(edited 3 years ago)
Reply 3
Original post by ghostwalker
For a counterexample to equality

let (an)(a_n) be the sequence

0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,...

and let (bn)(b_n) be the sequence

1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,...

Edit: I suspect you were unconsciously assuming the sequences converged.

No it is not that I was assuming that the sequences converge... But i can now see what I was thinking wrong, I was treating the sequences as sets, which can be "sometimes" useful in other concepts but not for this case. so we have sup(A+B)=supA+supB if A+B={a+b∣a∈A,b∈B} but with limsup(an + bn) an+bn is not equal to {a(i)+b(j)∣a(i)∈an,b(j)∈bn}. so with the sequences the addition refers to term by term addition and this is where I was careless.
Original post by Jack1255
No it is not that I was assuming that the sequences converge... But i can now see what I was thinking wrong, I was treating the sequences as sets, which can be "sometimes" useful in other concepts but not for this case. so we have sup(A+B)=supA+supB if A+B={a+b∣a∈A,b∈B} but with limsup(an + bn) an+bn is not equal to {a(i)+b(j)∣a(i)∈an,b(j)∈bn}. so with the sequences the addition refers to term by term addition and this is where I was careless.

:cool:
Reply 5
Original post by Jack1255
No it is not that I was assuming that the sequences converge... But i can now see what I was thinking wrong, I was treating the sequences as sets, which can be "sometimes" useful in other concepts but not for this case. so we have sup(A+B)=supA+supB if A+B={a+b∣a∈A,b∈B} but with limsup(an + bn) an+bn is not equal to {a(i)+b(j)∣a(i)∈an,b(j)∈bn}. so with the sequences the addition refers to term by term addition and this is where I was careless.

Your definition of "addition of sets" is not correct. For most mathematicians, A+BA + B doesn't mean anything, and it certainly doesn't mean {a+baA,bB}\{a + b \mid a \in A,\, b \in B\}.

In mathematical logic, if (A,A)(A, \leq_A) and (B,B)(B, \leq_B) are disjoint posets then A+B=(AB,)A + B = (A \cup B, \leq) where xyx \leq y iff one of the following is true:
Unparseable latex formula:

[br]x \in A, y \in B\\[br]x \in A, y \in A \text{ and } x \leq_A y\\[br]x \in B, y \in B \text{ and } x \leq_B y.[br]


If they are not disjoint, use A×{0}A \times \{0\} and B×{1}B \times \{1\} with standard reverse lexographic ordering.

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