Should this count as a covid19 death?

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Miss Maddie
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Scenario 1

You're fit and healthy. You're an asymptomatic carrier of covid19. You're queuing to shop in Tesco when a speeding car crashes into you. You're rushed into hospital. During the treatment they discover you have covid19. You later die from the internal bleeding and injuries of the car hitting you.

Should your death be added to the UK's tally of covid19 deaths reported daily?

Scenario 2

You're 80 and have a history of liver disease. You're been a heavy drinker all your life. The doctors don't give you long to live. You contract covid19 and it doesn't appear to affect you. You die of complications with liver disease.

Should your death be added to the UK's tally of covid19 deaths reported daily?

Scenario 3

You're 40 and you're obese. You have high cholesterol and high blood pressure. The doctors discover you have covid19. You have an undiagnosed blood clot that causes a heart attack. You die from your heart attack.

Should your death be added to the UK's tally of covid19 deaths reported daily?

Spoiler:
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They're all being recorded as covid19 deaths in the UK
Last edited by Miss Maddie; 8 months ago
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Jamie_1712
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No. No. No

It’s amazing to me how in america doctors are being incentivised to put Covid19 on the death certificate no matter the circumstances. God knows the same thing may be happening in the UK. I know there are definitely some instances in the UK where genuine heart attack patients have had Covid19 on their death certificate. The pandemic has been blown so out of proportion it’s unbelievable.
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meganrmatthews19
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
Scenario 1

You're fit and healthy. You're an asymptomatic carrier of covid19. You're queuing to shop in Tesco when a speeding car crashes into you. You're rushed into hospital. During the treatment they discover you have covid19. You later die from the internal bleeding and injuries of the car hitting you.

Should your death be added to the UK's tally of covid19 deaths reported daily?

Scenario 2

You're 80 and have a history of liver disease. You're been a heavy drinker all your life. The doctors don't give you long to live. You contract covid19 and it doesn't appear to affect you. You die of complications with liver disease.

Should your death be added to the UK's tally of covid19 deaths reported daily?

Scenario 3

You're 40 and you're obese. You have high cholesterol and high blood pressure. The doctors discover you have covid19. You have an undiagnosed blood clot that causes a heart attack. You die from your heart attack.

Should your death be added to the UK's tally of covid19 deaths reported daily?
No, they died from something else, they just happened to have Corona??
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Jamie_1712
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(Original post by meganrmatthews19)
No, they died from something else, they just happened to have Corona??
Yes but they are being recorded as Covid19 deaths in hospitals.
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1st superstar
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no for all of them
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Pigster
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The flip side is:

Someone with a high temperature and persistent cough dies from respiratory collapse, but they haven't had a test.

Do we not include them in the stats for Covid19?
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AzureCeleste
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
Scenario 1

You're fit and healthy. You're an asymptomatic carrier of covid19. You're queuing to shop in Tesco when a speeding car crashes into you. You're rushed into hospital. During the treatment they discover you have covid19. You later die from the internal bleeding and injuries of the car hitting you.

Should your death be added to the UK's tally of covid19 deaths reported daily?

Scenario 2

You're 80 and have a history of liver disease. You're been a heavy drinker all your life. The doctors don't give you long to live. You contract covid19 and it doesn't appear to affect you. You die of complications with liver disease.

Should your death be added to the UK's tally of covid19 deaths reported daily?

Scenario 3

You're 40 and you're obese. You have high cholesterol and high blood pressure. The doctors discover you have covid19. You have an undiagnosed blood clot that causes a heart attack. You die from your heart attack.

Should your death be added to the UK's tally of covid19 deaths reported daily?
1. No- that didn't kill them, the car did. They may not have died otherwise
2. No- the liver killed you not the resp infection
3. No- the MI killed them
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Miss Maddie
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(Original post by AzureCeleste)
1. No- that didn't kill them, the car did. They may not have died otherwise
2. No- the liver killed you not the resp infection
3. No- the MI killed them
They are included as a covid death. It's outrageous deaths are being exaggerated by using a metric of "died with covid"
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LiamJacobM
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probably not
no, however having any infection can affect the liver, so maybe, maybe not.
and maybe. Covid-19 does affect the heart, so how can you tell it was the clot or covid-19?
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Jamie_1712
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(Original post by LiamJacobM)
probably not
no, however having any infection can affect the liver, so maybe, maybe not.
and maybe. Covid-19 does affect the heart, so how can you tell it was the clot or covid-19?
SARS COV2 is an respiratory tract infection, not a cardiological infection. Sure having heart disease makes your chances of having worse symptoms and effectively dying higher. It does not mean the infection affects the heart.
Last edited by Jamie_1712; 8 months ago
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Jamie_1712
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(Original post by Pigster)
The flip side is:

Someone with a high temperature and persistent cough dies from respiratory collapse, but they haven't had a test.

Do we not include them in the stats for Covid19?
You can still test them. Also there are easily enough tests for this person to be tested before they die anyway.
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Justvisited
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What would be the policy motive for exaggerating Covid deaths in this way?
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LiamJacobM
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(Original post by Jamie_1712)
SARS COV2 is an respiratory tract infection, not a cardiological infection. Sure having heart disease makes your chances of having worse symptoms and effectively dying higher. It does not mean the infection affects the heart.
First off, The heart and lungs are very intertwined, so if one of the screws up, the other may get screwed up. Additionally pneumonia (which Covid-19 causes) causes inflammation in the body, which can lead to the arteries filling with plaque, eventually possibly causing a heart attack. Now I am no expert, I do not know much about this stuff, but there is a correlation with Covid-19 and problems with the heart (even if there is no previous problems with the heart). And even then pneumonia's a *****.
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nexttime
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(Original post by Jamie_1712)
I know there are definitely some instances in the UK where genuine heart attack patients have had Covid19 on their death certificate.
Really? You know this? So... did you also look after the patients, or are you a lawyer investigating the case? Either way, sounds very interesting please tell me more.

The pandemic has been blown so out of proportion it’s unbelievable.
The number of deaths is vastly higher than reported, not less, due to the number of deaths without being tested. Probably in the order of 50,000 based on ONS excess mortality data - have a look for yourself.

(Original post by Miss Maddie)
You're 40 and you're obese. You have high cholesterol and high blood pressure. The doctors discover you have covid19. You have an undiagnosed blood clot that causes a heart attack. You die from your heart attack.
(Original post by Jamie_1712)
SARS COV2 is an respiratory tract infection, not a cardiological infection. Sure having heart disease makes your chances of having worse symptoms and effectively dying higher. It does not mean the infection affects the heart.
An interesting example to pick, given that covid is well known to cause blood clots.

Its for speed of reporting, nothing more. ONS is doing weekly reports from other sources if you want to pay attention to that.
(Original post by Jamie_1712)
You can still test them. Also there are easily enough tests for this person to be tested before they die anyway.
You're suggesting post-mortem testing? An interesting proposal. Probably have to do it pretty quickly for any accuracy though.

But anyway - the point is, its not what we've done so far, and there are lots of false negatives.
(Original post by Justvisited)
What would be the policy motive for exaggerating Covid deaths in this way?
Its just for speed. If you wait for death certificates say you're waiting a couple weeks, whereas this way you are waiting, on average, about 2 days.

Remember that the alternatives are not great either. Death certificates are not at all accurate, particularly for community deaths without a swab where you're literally asking the GP to guess. The swab has a lot of false negatives which doesn't help too.
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nexttime
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(Original post by LiamJacobM)
First off, The heart and lungs are very intertwined, so if one of the screws up, the other may get screwed up. Additionally pneumonia (which Covid-19 causes) causes inflammation in the body, which can lead to the arteries filling with plaque, eventually possibly causing a heart attack. Now I am no expert, I do not know much about this stuff, but there is a correlation with Covid-19 and problems with the heart (even if there is no previous problems with the heart). And even then pneumonia's a *****.
The mechanism is completely wrong, but yes covid can cause heart failure in a minority of cases
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username402722
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Number 2 should be in my opinion.

Though arguing about the numbers or saying you cannot make international comparisons is being used as an excuse by Mr Johnson's government to hide their catalogue of failures. Too slow to react initially, too slow to stop large gatherings, too slow to engage all of our labs for testing (still not made 100,000 a day), and failings on PPE (how many companies in the UK offered to make PPE and never heard back from the government?).

If Mr Johnson or someone as incompetent as him had been PM instead of Churchill, the Nazis would have successfully invaded the UK.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
Scenario 1

You're fit and healthy. You're an asymptomatic carrier of covid19. You're queuing to shop in Tesco when a speeding car crashes into you. You're rushed into hospital. During the treatment they discover you have covid19. You later die from the internal bleeding and injuries of the car hitting you.

Should your death be added to the UK's tally of covid19 deaths reported daily?

Scenario 2

You're 80 and have a history of liver disease. You're been a heavy drinker all your life. The doctors don't give you long to live. You contract covid19 and it doesn't appear to affect you. You die of complications with liver disease.

Should your death be added to the UK's tally of covid19 deaths reported daily?

Scenario 3

You're 40 and you're obese. You have high cholesterol and high blood pressure. The doctors discover you have covid19. You have an undiagnosed blood clot that causes a heart attack. You die from your heart attack.

Should your death be added to the UK's tally of covid19 deaths reported daily?

Spoiler:
Show

They're all being recorded as covid19 deaths in the UK
I knew this and partially agree. But in a way it doesn’t matter as over time you can get a good reflection of deaths by comparing this year’s death rate with average rates from previous years.

I will add to your woes by also saying that deaths in the community, confirmed or otherwise or not counted. But when collecting statistics, it sort of doesn’t matter as long as you are consistent.
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Miss Maddie
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(Original post by ByEeek)
I knew this and partially agree. But in a way it doesn’t matter as over time you can get a good reflection of deaths by comparing this year’s death rate with average rates from previous years.

I will add to your woes by also saying that deaths in the community, confirmed or otherwise or not counted. But when collecting statistics, it sort of doesn’t matter as long as you are consistent.
You’re correct in stating that it doesn’t matter provided all deaths are recorded consistently, however, even comparing data such as excess deaths at the end of the year will be inherently difficult. Were the excess deaths due to COVID-19 or the lockdown? Perhaps people chose not to seek medical care for fear of contracting COVID-19 in hospital? Or what about all those cancer screenings and other diagnostic tests that the NHS cancelled – did they lead to a number of cancers being detected too late for any treatment to be effective?

The ONS data includes deaths in hospitals, care homes as well as at home and in other locations. Recording all deaths as COVID-19 has achieved two things:

- Making it exceptionally difficult to know how many people have truly died of it. Whilst data on how many have died with pre-existing conditions is available, this includes both the pre-existing condition of someone getting flattened by a car outside Tesco and an asthma suffer who would have had a long and healthy life ahead.

- Enabling the media to have a field day in comparing UK data with other countries in nonsense league tables, Italian data doesn’t even include care home deaths…
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