Is black people x2 more likely to die in custody manipulated statistics or not?
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1292938/deaths-in-police-custody-uk-how-many-people-die-in-police-custody-UK-black-lives-matter
I've been looking at these stats, and they look quite manipulated or am I tripping. It seems that only 16 black people have died in custody in the past 10 years compared to white people in which the number is 188. However, the media keep pedaling the idea that black people are x2 more likely to die. I've looked at this closely and the reason why they've done this is because of the population sizes of black and white people.
It seems as if the ratio will always be lower for white people and will always look like black people are dying more because white people have a greater population, and black people have a lower population in the UK.
To put it better, imagine if the UK was comprised of only a population of 1010 people. 1000 people are white and 10 people are black. If 10 white people commit a crime and die in custody compared to 1 black person, wouldn't basic maths always show that black people are more likely to die in custody and therefore there is clear evidence that there is racism against Black People?
I am a person of colour, I've never experienced racism from anyone in the UK be it the general public or the police, and trust me I've travelled around most of the UK and all have been welcoming.
Am I missing something here????
I've been looking at these stats, and they look quite manipulated or am I tripping. It seems that only 16 black people have died in custody in the past 10 years compared to white people in which the number is 188. However, the media keep pedaling the idea that black people are x2 more likely to die. I've looked at this closely and the reason why they've done this is because of the population sizes of black and white people.
It seems as if the ratio will always be lower for white people and will always look like black people are dying more because white people have a greater population, and black people have a lower population in the UK.
To put it better, imagine if the UK was comprised of only a population of 1010 people. 1000 people are white and 10 people are black. If 10 white people commit a crime and die in custody compared to 1 black person, wouldn't basic maths always show that black people are more likely to die in custody and therefore there is clear evidence that there is racism against Black People?
I am a person of colour, I've never experienced racism from anyone in the UK be it the general public or the police, and trust me I've travelled around most of the UK and all have been welcoming.
Am I missing something here????
Scroll to see replies
nice grammar and probably not
Original post by X1PRINCE
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1292938/deaths-in-police-custody-uk-how-many-people-die-in-police-custody-UK-black-lives-matter
I've been looking at these stats, and they look quite manipulated or am I tripping. It seems that only 16 black people have died in custody in the past 10 years compared to white people in which the number is 188. However, the media keep pedaling the idea that black people are x2 more likely to die. I've looked at this closely and the reason why they've done this is because of the population sizes of black and white people.
It seems as if the ratio will always be lower for white people and will always look like black people are dying more because white people have a greater population, and black people have a lower population in the UK.
To put it better, imagine if the UK was comprised of only a population of 1010 people. 1000 people are white and 10 people are black. If 10 white people commit a crime and die in custody compared to 1 black person, wouldn't basic maths always show that black people are more likely to die in custody and therefore there is clear evidence that there is racism against Black People?
I am a person of colour, I've never experienced racism from anyone in the UK be it the general public or the police, and trust me I've travelled around most of the UK and all have been welcoming.
Am I missing something here????
I've been looking at these stats, and they look quite manipulated or am I tripping. It seems that only 16 black people have died in custody in the past 10 years compared to white people in which the number is 188. However, the media keep pedaling the idea that black people are x2 more likely to die. I've looked at this closely and the reason why they've done this is because of the population sizes of black and white people.
It seems as if the ratio will always be lower for white people and will always look like black people are dying more because white people have a greater population, and black people have a lower population in the UK.
To put it better, imagine if the UK was comprised of only a population of 1010 people. 1000 people are white and 10 people are black. If 10 white people commit a crime and die in custody compared to 1 black person, wouldn't basic maths always show that black people are more likely to die in custody and therefore there is clear evidence that there is racism against Black People?
I am a person of colour, I've never experienced racism from anyone in the UK be it the general public or the police, and trust me I've travelled around most of the UK and all have been welcoming.
Am I missing something here????
Unfortunately the media do often manipulate data or take it out of context, generally to suit a particular narrative. Let's not forget that media outlets are in the business of selling papers, and writing controversial statistics as headlines to start a debate will generally result in more sales or website clicks. I'm not 100% sure about these statistics, it doesn't mention where these deaths occured (as some areas of London or Birmingham have much higher proportions of BAME communities), so to generalise on a national level doesn't explain the full picture.
It seems to be a similar narrative to stop and search, particularly in London. The Met has been accused of targetting young black males for stop and search, despite the vast majority of people affiliated with gangs being young black males. It would be ridiculous to ignore the demogrpahic of people within gangs and focus on egalitarian stop and search, however that is precisely would the 'armchair expert' journalists suggest. I would consider the figures quoted carefully before drawing conclusion regarding institutional racism.
I don't know about UK stats.
In the US I remember reading a report that black males are much more likely than the next nearest demographic to violently resist arrest. Unfortunately I didn't save a link and I can't find it now so take it or leave it as you like.
Other things play into these stats you shouldn't jump straight to racism.
If you are a white man you are over 20x times more likely to be assaulted by a black man than a black man is to be assaulted by you.
Does that mean the black man is being racist?
In the US I remember reading a report that black males are much more likely than the next nearest demographic to violently resist arrest. Unfortunately I didn't save a link and I can't find it now so take it or leave it as you like.
Other things play into these stats you shouldn't jump straight to racism.
If you are a white man you are over 20x times more likely to be assaulted by a black man than a black man is to be assaulted by you.
Does that mean the black man is being racist?
Original post by JOSH4598
Unfortunately the media do often manipulate data or take it out of context, generally to suit a particular narrative. Let's not forget that media outlets are in the business of selling papers, and writing controversial statistics as headlines to start a debate will generally result in more sales or website clicks. I'm not 100% sure about these statistics, it doesn't mention where these deaths occured (as some areas of London or Birmingham have much higher proportions of BAME communities), so to generalise on a national level doesn't explain the full picture.
It seems to be a similar narrative to stop and search, particularly in London. The Met has been accused of targetting young black males for stop and search, despite the vast majority of people affiliated with gangs being young black males. It would be ridiculous to ignore the demogrpahic of people within gangs and focus on egalitarian stop and search, however that is precisely would the 'armchair expert' journalists suggest. I would consider the figures quoted carefully before drawing conclusion regarding institutional racism.
It seems to be a similar narrative to stop and search, particularly in London. The Met has been accused of targetting young black males for stop and search, despite the vast majority of people affiliated with gangs being young black males. It would be ridiculous to ignore the demogrpahic of people within gangs and focus on egalitarian stop and search, however that is precisely would the 'armchair expert' journalists suggest. I would consider the figures quoted carefully before drawing conclusion regarding institutional racism.
Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the stats all over the news! Also, the fact that Winston Churchill was defaced and has the graffiti "racist" on his statue is absolutely terrible. I know he had said a few racist views but who hasn't? Everyone from Winston Churchill to Albert Einstien is all known to have said racist stuff, but does that mean we tear them down and forget all their good deeds? I mean Winston Churchill is the reason for why everyone in the UK is able to live a free and peaceful life, not just the UK but most of the world, cause god only knows what the outcome of the war would have been when it could have switched from a two-front war to a one front war. It just reflects the time and views they were a part of.
All this stuff just saddens me!
Original post by X1PRINCE
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1292938/deaths-in-police-custody-uk-how-many-people-die-in-police-custody-UK-black-lives-matter
I've been looking at these stats, and they look quite manipulated or am I tripping. It seems that only 16 black people have died in custody in the past 10 years compared to white people in which the number is 188. However, the media keep pedaling the idea that black people are x2 more likely to die. I've looked at this closely and the reason why they've done this is because of the population sizes of black and white people.
It seems as if the ratio will always be lower for white people and will always look like black people are dying more because white people have a greater population, and black people have a lower population in the UK.
To put it better, imagine if the UK was comprised of only a population of 1010 people. 1000 people are white and 10 people are black. If 10 white people commit a crime and die in custody compared to 1 black person, wouldn't basic maths always show that black people are more likely to die in custody and therefore there is clear evidence that there is racism against Black People?
I am a person of colour, I've never experienced racism from anyone in the UK be it the general public or the police, and trust me I've travelled around most of the UK and all have been welcoming.
Am I missing something here????
I've been looking at these stats, and they look quite manipulated or am I tripping. It seems that only 16 black people have died in custody in the past 10 years compared to white people in which the number is 188. However, the media keep pedaling the idea that black people are x2 more likely to die. I've looked at this closely and the reason why they've done this is because of the population sizes of black and white people.
It seems as if the ratio will always be lower for white people and will always look like black people are dying more because white people have a greater population, and black people have a lower population in the UK.
To put it better, imagine if the UK was comprised of only a population of 1010 people. 1000 people are white and 10 people are black. If 10 white people commit a crime and die in custody compared to 1 black person, wouldn't basic maths always show that black people are more likely to die in custody and therefore there is clear evidence that there is racism against Black People?
I am a person of colour, I've never experienced racism from anyone in the UK be it the general public or the police, and trust me I've travelled around most of the UK and all have been welcoming.
Am I missing something here????
I think there are a few things to sort out here.
1. Are you comparing like with like?
2. Have you taken into account the proportion of each race in society as a whole?
3. Finally, "twice as likely" sounds like a lot, but only if the number was big to start with. If 4 white people die in custody out of a throughput of 300,000 arrested people, being twice as likely to die is really quite small.
I am not saying it is not an issue - all deaths in custody should be investigated thoroughly, but a sensational "twice as likely" does not necessarily point to systemic failure.
Original post by X1PRINCE
Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the stats all over the news! Also, the fact that Winston Churchill was defaced and has the graffiti "racist" on his statue is absolutely terrible. I know he had said a few racist views but who hasn't? Everyone from Winston Churchill to Albert Einstien is all known to have said racist stuff, but does that mean we tear them down and forget all their good deeds? I mean Winston Churchill is the reason for why everyone in the UK is able to live a free and peaceful life, not just the UK but most of the world, cause god only knows what the outcome of the war would have been when it could have switched from a two-front war to a one front war. It just reflects the time and views they were a part of.
All this stuff just saddens me!
All this stuff just saddens me!
Couldn't agree more - I guess great minds think alike!
Original post by X1PRINCE
Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the stats all over the news! Also, the fact that Winston Churchill was defaced and has the graffiti "racist" on his statue is absolutely terrible. I know he had said a few racist views but who hasn't? Everyone from Winston Churchill to Albert Einstien is all known to have said racist stuff, but does that mean we tear them down and forget all their good deeds? I mean Winston Churchill is the reason for why everyone in the UK is able to live a free and peaceful life, not just the UK but most of the world, cause god only knows what the outcome of the war would have been when it could have switched from a two-front war to a one front war. It just reflects the time and views they were a part of.
All this stuff just saddens me!
All this stuff just saddens me!
I was more upset that police horse was hurt than a stupid statue.
Original post by ByEeek
I think there are a few things to sort out here.
1. Are you comparing like with like?
2. Have you taken into account the proportion of each race in society as a whole?
3. Finally, "twice as likely" sounds like a lot, but only if the number was big to start with. If 4 white people die in custody out of a throughput of 300,000 arrested people, being twice as likely to die is really quite small.
I am not saying it is not an issue - all deaths in custody should be investigated thoroughly, but a sensational "twice as likely" does not necessarily point to systemic failure.
1. Are you comparing like with like?
2. Have you taken into account the proportion of each race in society as a whole?
3. Finally, "twice as likely" sounds like a lot, but only if the number was big to start with. If 4 white people die in custody out of a throughput of 300,000 arrested people, being twice as likely to die is really quite small.
I am not saying it is not an issue - all deaths in custody should be investigated thoroughly, but a sensational "twice as likely" does not necessarily point to systemic failure.
Precisely - your explanation sums it up well!
Also, I believe quite a number of deaths in police custody are as a result of swallowing drugs or other contraband, which suspects will often do just before being stopped to hide any incriminating evidence. It's impossible to blame the police for a suspect swallowing these packages which, upon breaking up inside the body, can lead to a fatal overdose in a matter of minutes. Unfortunately, that point doesn't suit the anti-police agenda peddled by our media!
Yeah but the value is for the past 10 years, not to mention most of the deaths in cells by black people are of their own doing, same with white people. If you're telling me that the value for black deaths or arrests should be lower against population I wouldn't bite, because you're making it look like one ethnic group is a saint and the other one ain't. So you're telling me based on my previous hypothetical that if a 100 white people out of 1000 white people die in custody and only 2 out of 10 black people were to die in custody, black peoples number should be lower because of the fact that there are more white people here in the UK and so it should be both equal? Or that all black people get arrested and stay in their cells as saints and not do a thing wrong? The statistic is just taken out of context, it doesn't go deep into why those 16 black people died over 10 years, it has been made to look on purpose that black people are more likely to die, but in reality that is not the case. I can tell you right now that if this was the other way around, and it was white people or Asian people, the media will not a bat a single eye! The UK is not the US! I mean bearing in mind that the value for crime is steadily going down and the fact that these values are for the past 10 YEARS!!
Ok, let me play ball with you for a second, imagine if the value of the deaths over the past 10 years were the same for black,white,Asian etc. Now a black is a arrested, resists, leading to him to be violent when put in his cell. Lets say he hits his head against the wall several times and dies (which often times you get idiots like that in all groups). Now that death has tipped the "equal" to "not equal" as previously mentioned. Does that mean the police are racists?
I mean if the value was over 100+ black people and 100+ white people dying in custody, that would ring alarm bells but 16 for the past 10 years when white people having had 100+ is pretty stretched out.
I mean if the value was over 100+ black people and 100+ white people dying in custody, that would ring alarm bells but 16 for the past 10 years when white people having had 100+ is pretty stretched out.
What I'm trying to say is that we should be looking at this in a case by case light. Not just bland numbers, the stats can always be made to look like one group is biased even when it's not, even when there is a clear reason for why they are locked up. "People from BAME (black, Asian and minority ethnic) backgrounds constitute only 14% of the general population in England and Wales, but make up 25% of its prison population", are we then saying out of all these millions of colored people, the 25% of these guys are completely innocent and did absolutely nothing wrong?
Not to mention there might be various other factors for why BAME people are more likely to commit crime, like being in poverty. Why aren't we focusing on all the stats? I mean my parents came to this country 10s of years back with no money to their name, if they hadn't of got a job and done things to keep themselves self sustained maybe they would have turned to crime. I mean we always point fingers saying these people are racists and that government are racists but we often forget the people who commit crime actually have reason for it. It's not just the UK, this the same with Germany and every other first world country. It's so easy nowadays to just pass it off as racism and sweep it right under the rug, I'm just so sick of it, we need to be getting down to the crux of the issue, not the tip of ice berg!!! And only then the crime rate not just for BAME but the whole population will go down
I don't know whether you understand what I'm saying, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but I've completely lost my trust in the media no matter what political spectrum its in.
Not to mention there might be various other factors for why BAME people are more likely to commit crime, like being in poverty. Why aren't we focusing on all the stats? I mean my parents came to this country 10s of years back with no money to their name, if they hadn't of got a job and done things to keep themselves self sustained maybe they would have turned to crime. I mean we always point fingers saying these people are racists and that government are racists but we often forget the people who commit crime actually have reason for it. It's not just the UK, this the same with Germany and every other first world country. It's so easy nowadays to just pass it off as racism and sweep it right under the rug, I'm just so sick of it, we need to be getting down to the crux of the issue, not the tip of ice berg!!! And only then the crime rate not just for BAME but the whole population will go down
I don't know whether you understand what I'm saying, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but I've completely lost my trust in the media no matter what political spectrum its in.
This shows a good part of the problem. We need to do more to stop this from happening. I don't believe that the colour of your skin increases your chance of taking up criminal activity, it is the society around you that does it, so what is going wrong?
With regards to the deaths is custody, are black people more likely to resist arrest? Again, not through being inherently bad, but possibly a greater mistrust of the police and justice system?
With regards to the deaths is custody, are black people more likely to resist arrest? Again, not through being inherently bad, but possibly a greater mistrust of the police and justice system?
I don't think that it is manipulated statistics. What is missing is why, and also comparing on the basis of area, level of education and poverty, for example.
It's not that simple. There are things that are known to drive people to have a higher chance of committing crime. It would be lovely if you could just tell everyone to obey the law, but that isn't going to work. It is especially hard for children whose parents are happy to commit crime. How do you break the cycle?
(edited 3 years ago)
Black people are less likely to die in custody than white people. There's no two ways about it.
It's worth considering that people will *always* die in custody - simply because of the circumstances that surround custody. Most people are having a bad day if they are in custody. Some are having the worst day of their lives, some are at their absolute lowest ebb. A lot of people are depressed. A lot are addicts of some kind or another. Some will be withdrawing. Some will have consumed drugs or alcohol and refuse to speak about it. Others are violent and angry.
When you take a population sample from the above groups - is it not easy to see why there are deaths in custody? Sure, the risks can be minimised and mitigated, but these things are going to happen.
The amazing thing is that black people are less likely than white people to die. That should tell you all you need to know.
It's worth considering that people will *always* die in custody - simply because of the circumstances that surround custody. Most people are having a bad day if they are in custody. Some are having the worst day of their lives, some are at their absolute lowest ebb. A lot of people are depressed. A lot are addicts of some kind or another. Some will be withdrawing. Some will have consumed drugs or alcohol and refuse to speak about it. Others are violent and angry.
When you take a population sample from the above groups - is it not easy to see why there are deaths in custody? Sure, the risks can be minimised and mitigated, but these things are going to happen.
The amazing thing is that black people are less likely than white people to die. That should tell you all you need to know.
Change the word "bame" to "working class" being disproportionately part of the prison population, do think anybody would be quizzing this.
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