Do you feel that the UK lags behind other Western nations on social mobility?

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RJDG14
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#1
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I find it quite astonishing just how many well known British people were privately educated - around 2/5, when only around 1/20 of the UK's population were. Around a further fifth were grammar school educated (again about 1/20 of Britain's population were) and only around 2/5 were comprehensive educated, compared to about 90% of the UK's overall population including myself. For some professions such as footballers a similar proportion to the national average were state educated, however for others such as judges, acting, journalism and politics (especially within the Tories; it isn't as bad within Labour) a disproportionately high number were privately educated, and to me this almost feels as though the only reason why many of these people got to the position they're in was because of the contacts that their parents had. I personally feel that the UK needs to invest a lot of effort into giving ordinary people the equal opportunity to succeed regardless of their background (although I'm definitely not a fan of Corbyn), as well as encouraging and assisting the working and lower-middle classes to become more middle class in their lifestyle.

I have no issue with people becoming moderately wealthy through merit though - I feel that the current class landscape in Britain consists of the lower working-class, upper working class, lower middle class, middle class (which is roughly where I sit), upper-middle class/lower wealthy and extreme wealthy, which I define as households with a net worth of more than £10 million. In my ideal vision for Britain, the class system would consist primarily of middle class and upper-middle class/lower wealthy, with better funded state schools designed to compete with private schools in terms of education, opportunity and building quality, and this could be achieved by substantially increasing taxes on the super-wealthy and introducing tough controls to prevent further house price inflation while keeping taxes at their present level for everyone else.

This isn't a political thread although I don't particularly agree with either of the main 2 parties visions. The Tories broadly support the present unfair system while the hard left of Labour, which is luckily going away again, ideally wants everybody to be upper-working class which I don't feel is good either.
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Blackpool Tower
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Cool story bro.
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Napp
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So your view is punish children for things that they had absolutely nothing to do with..? Heaven forfend the idea a middle class parent sends their child to a private school.
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RJDG14
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(Original post by Napp)
So your view is punish children for things that they had absolutely nothing to do with..? Heaven forfend the idea a middle class parent sends their child to a private school.
No, definitely not. I mean that we should be giving people from average state educated backgrounds an equal opportunity to those from wealthier backgrounds at the moment. Here's a diagram I made showing the approximate class system in Britain at the moment, compared to Labour's class vision during the high-tax period of the 1970s and my personal vision for our class system.

Name:  UKClasses.png
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Size:  22.3 KB
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999tigger
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(Original post by RJDG14)
I find it quite astonishing just how many well known British people were privately educated - around 2/5, when only around 1/20 of the UK's population were. Around a further fifth were grammar school educated (again about 1/20 of Britain's population were) and only around 2/5 were comprehensive educated, compared to about 90% of the UK's overall population including myself. For some professions such as footballers a similar proportion to the national average were state educated, however for others such as judges, acting, journalism and politics (especially within the Tories; it isn't as bad within Labour) a disproportionately high number were privately educated, and to me this almost feels as though the only reason why many of these people got to the position they're in was because of the contacts that their parents had. I personally feel that the UK needs to invest a lot of effort into giving ordinary people the equal opportunity to succeed regardless of their background (although I'm definitely not a fan of Corbyn), as well as encouraging and assisting the working and lower-middle classes to become more middle class in their lifestyle.

I have no issue with people becoming moderately wealthy through merit though - I feel that the current class landscape in Britain consists of the lower working-class, upper working class, lower middle class, middle class (which is roughly where I sit), upper-middle class/lower wealthy and extreme wealthy, which I define as households with a net worth of more than £10 million. In my ideal vision for Britain, the class system would consist primarily of middle class and upper-middle class/lower wealthy, with better funded state schools designed to compete with private schools in terms of education, opportunity and building quality, and this could be achieved by substantially increasing taxes on the super-wealthy and introducing tough controls to prevent further house price inflation while keeping taxes at their present level for everyone else.

This isn't a political thread although I don't particularly agree with either of the main 2 parties visions. The Tories broadly support the present unfair system while the hard left of Labour, which is luckily going away again, ideally wants everybody to be upper-working class which I don't feel is good either.
In my ideal vision for Britain, the class system would consist primarily of middle class and upper-middle class/lower wealth


How would this be possible? Doesnt someone have to be a peasant, merely to make the others look good?
Which other nations would you say are better?
You are never going to get past inherited wealth.
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RJDG14
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(Original post by 999tigger)
In my ideal vision for Britain, the class system would consist primarily of middle class and upper-middle class/lower wealth


How would this be possible? Doesnt someone have to be a peasant, merely to make the others look good?
Which other nations would you say are better?
You are never going to get past inherited wealth.
I'd have probably said most Western nations are better than Britain in this respect - I think even in the United States a higher number of well known people were state educated than here. I'm opposed to outlawing private schools like Finland has done, though - as I said earlier, I think we need to invest in our state education and expand partnerships with areas of the industry and improve student options in order to help the average British student to succeed just like their privately educated counterparts can. Certainly where I live, many of the state schoolbuildings look quite run down inside, especially those built between the 1950s and 1980s when construction quality wasn't very good.
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Just my opinion
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There is a massive variation on the quality of state schools and a sort of class system works within those state schools.
Unlike public schools where you pay twice for your education ( once to the public school that you use and once to the state even though your child isn't using it) the best state schools are accessed mostly by middle-classes by catchment area house prices.
Working and lower working class can't afford to live in the catchment area becase the very fact that the school is there artificially hikes the house prices. Many middle-class people see this extra house price as an alternative to the money they would have had to pay in school fees for public school. The difference being you have invested the money which you get back in spades when you sell the house when your youngest leaves school.
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RJDG14
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#8
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(Original post by Just my opinion)
There is a massive variation on the quality of state schools and a sort of class system works within those state schools.
Unlike public schools where you pay twice for your education ( once to the public school that you use and once to the state even though your child isn't using it) the best state schools are accessed mostly by middle-classes by catchment area house prices.
Working and lower working class can't afford to live in the catchment area becase the very fact that the school is there artificially hikes the house prices. Many middle-class people see this extra house price as an alternative to the money they would have had to pay in school fees for public school. The difference being you have invested the money which you get back in spades when you sell the house when your youngest leaves school.
That's somewhat true. My secondary school wasn't a bad one in terms of its rankings, but the main building was in a pretty poor shape when I started there even though it was only 25 years old then (34 years now). I read that it was ranked as being one of the most improved state schools in the South West while I was there, and it had previously performed pretty averagely going back to the early-mid 2000s.

My school was an all-abilities comprehensive but it did seperate students into different ability classes for different subjects. I was in the middle-ability group for English right the way through (my English language was at the upper level but I never found much literature interesting) and was originally in the upper-ability group for Maths before being moved to the upper-middle group after I freaked out a lot due to my new teacher's style of teaching at the start of Year 9, which I really struggled to handle.

I have Asperger's Syndrome and my school had a specialist unit for that, too, although from around Y9 onwards I got annoyed by having too much support and told the unit to stop assisting me as much, which they were happy to do. The school I went to also had no bells throughout the day (apart from for use as a fire alarm) which helped me cope very well there, since I've had a long time phobia of loud, sudden noises. According to a couple of staff who had been there since the late 1980s, it never had scheduled bells.
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vapordave
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#9
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#9
(Original post by RJDG14)
I find it quite astonishing just how many well known British people were privately educated - around 2/5, when only around 1/20 of the UK's population were. Around a further fifth were grammar school educated (again about 1/20 of Britain's population were) and only around 2/5 were comprehensive educated, compared to about 90% of the UK's overall population including myself. For some professions such as footballers a similar proportion to the national average were state educated, however for others such as judges, acting, journalism and politics (especially within the Tories; it isn't as bad within Labour) a disproportionately high number were privately educated, and to me this almost feels as though the only reason why many of these people got to the position they're in was because of the contacts that their parents had. I personally feel that the UK needs to invest a lot of effort into giving ordinary people the equal opportunity to succeed regardless of their background (although I'm definitely not a fan of Corbyn), as well as encouraging and assisting the working and lower-middle classes to become more middle class in their lifestyle.

I have no issue with people becoming moderately wealthy through merit though - I feel that the current class landscape in Britain consists of the lower working-class, upper working class, lower middle class, middle class (which is roughly where I sit), upper-middle class/lower wealthy and extreme wealthy, which I define as households with a net worth of more than £10 million. In my ideal vision for Britain, the class system would consist primarily of middle class and upper-middle class/lower wealthy, with better funded state schools designed to compete with private schools in terms of education, opportunity and building quality, and this could be achieved by substantially increasing taxes on the super-wealthy and introducing tough controls to prevent further house price inflation while keeping taxes at their present level for everyone else.

This isn't a political thread although I don't particularly agree with either of the main 2 parties visions. The Tories broadly support the present unfair system while the hard left of Labour, which is luckily going away again, ideally wants everybody to be upper-working class which I don't feel is good either.
How about instead we close tax loopholes and fund state schools better? The problem fixes itself.
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Underscore__
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#10
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(Original post by Daveological)
How about instead we close tax loopholes and fund state schools better? The problem fixes itself.
You know that by closing ‘tax loopholes’ you end up removing tax exemptions for legitimate causes?
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