Fullofsurprises
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Oriel college have decided that Rhodes should fall.
https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...versial-statue

The Victorian-era statue of Rhodes that faces High St in Oxford is to be taken down and the college is to enter into a process of historical analysis of Rhodes' relationship with Oxford and Oriel and the scholarship bequest, via an independent commission.

"Oriel College voted on Wednesday to launch an independent commission of inquiry into the key issues surrounding the Rhodes statue. A spokesperson said in a statement that they had “expressed their wish to remove the statue of Cecil Rhodes … This is what they intend to convey to the independent commission.”

It isn't final yet that the statue will come down, but this is a welcome step towards removal. It is supported by a number of other heads of colleges.
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biggieofficial
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#2
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thought you was talking about a different type of rhodes lol
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nathan_nacu
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Oriel college have decided that Rhodes should fall.
https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...versial-statue

The Victorian-era statue of Rhodes that faces High St in Oxford is to be taken down and the college is to enter into a process of historical analysis of Rhodes' relationship with Oxford and Oriel and the scholarship bequest, via an independent commission.

"Oriel College voted on Wednesday to launch an independent commission of inquiry into the key issues surrounding the Rhodes statue. A spokesperson said in a statement that they had “expressed their wish to remove the statue of Cecil Rhodes … This is what they intend to convey to the independent commission.”

It isn't final yet that the statue will come down, but this is a welcome step towards removal. It is supported by a number of other heads of colleges.
Why would they remove it ?
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z-hog
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(Original post by nathan_nacu)
Why would they remove it ?
Do they have a choice?
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generallee
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This was inevitable given the madness into which we have fallen, but still a very sad day for Oxford University. Shameful, in fact.

We can expect the "decolonisation" of the curriculum to advance apace too. Forget long long dead white men like Plato and Aristotle, and their failure to have the correct views on slavery, even one of the founders of modern liberalism, John Locke participated in slavery, made money from it. He won't be worthy of study soon. Probably had the wrong views on trans gender bathrooms too. I hear the sciences are the next to fall, and that will really be the end of learning and scholarship.

This revolution is succeeding in destroying our civilisation, that much is obvious. We know what they are against. But what are they for? What will they put in its place?
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by generallee)
This was inevitable given the madness into which we have fallen, but still a very sad day for Oxford University. Shameful, in fact.

We can expect the "decolonisation" of the curriculum to advance apace too. Forget long long dead white men like Plato and Aristotle, and their failure to have the correct views on slavery, even one of the founders of modern liberalism, John Locke participated in slavery, made money from it. He won't be worthy of study soon. Probably had the wrong views on trans gender bathrooms too. I hear the sciences are the next to fall, and that will really be the end of learning and scholarship.

This revolution is succeeding in destroying our civilisation, that much is obvious. We know what they are against. But what are they for? What will they put in its place?
Nice hyperbole, but I think it may be a while before Aristotle and Plato slip off the Oxford curricula, or Locke. However, what might happen is that people of non-European heritage who teach at Oxford might get the confidence to widen teaching about non-European traditions. Quite why that should be a bad thing is anyone's guess, unless the motive for opposing it is racism, in which case it all becomes clear.
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z-hog
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(Original post by generallee)
This revolution is succeeding in destroying our civilisation, that much is obvious.
You mean it's all going according to plan, as in that manifesto set out in London by the Commies? It's a bit like Mein Kampf, it was all there to for everyone to see but the 'right-thinking' people kept downplaying it all until proven wrong. All that is happening is perfectly understandable and logical when put against a political document setting out the need to bring down all social structures in order to implement the utopia contained in it.
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generallee
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Nice hyperbole, but I think it may be a while before Aristotle and Plato slip off the Oxford curricula, or Locke. However, what might happen is that people of non-European heritage who teach at Oxford might get the confidence to widen teaching about non-European traditions. Quite why that should be a bad thing is anyone's guess, unless the motive for opposing it is racism, in which case it all becomes clear.
Remind me, who are the sub Saharan African philosophers whom one could put against Plato, Aristotle and Locke?

Is it "racist" to ask such a question? Eurocentric?
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by generallee)
Remind me, who are the sub Saharan African philosophers whom one could put against Plato, Aristotle and Locke?

Is it "racist" to ask such a question? Eurocentric?
Oxford philosophy courses already include material about Arab World medieval philosophy.

It would be a positive thing to widen and deepen non-Eurocentric visions of philosophy to include the learnings of, for example, India and China - unless you also view those as underdeveloped and primitive?
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Plagioclase
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(Original post by generallee)
This was inevitable given the madness into which we have fallen, but still a very sad day for Oxford University. Shameful, in fact.

We can expect the "decolonisation" of the curriculum to advance apace too. Forget long long dead white men like Plato and Aristotle, and their failure to have the correct views on slavery, even one of the founders of modern liberalism, John Locke participated in slavery, made money from it. He won't be worthy of study soon. Probably had the wrong views on trans gender bathrooms too. I hear the sciences are the next to fall, and that will really be the end of learning and scholarship.

This revolution is succeeding in destroying our civilisation, that much is obvious. We know what they are against. But what are they for? What will they put in its place?
Imagine genuinely believing that removing the statue of a racist is destroying our civilisation.
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Napp
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I trust they'll stop giving out the Rhodes scholarship then? Wouldnt want anyone to benefit from such a naughty person :rolleyes:
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the bear
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tunc uero rupique sinus et pectora planxi, et secui madidas ungue rigente genas
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by the bear)
tunc uero rupique sinus et pectora planxi, et secui madidas ungue rigente genas
Nostrum erit decernere, fata Deorum. Non est nobis iudicare voluntatis suae
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the bear
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Nostrum erit decernere, fata Deorum. Non est nobis iudicare voluntatis suae
te somnia nostra reducunt, somnia formosa candidiora die

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in your dreams
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generallee
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(Original post by Plagioclase)
Imagine genuinely believing that removing the statue of a racist is destroying our civilisation.
And imagine genuinely believing that removing the statue of a man, whilst keeping the £250 million trust fund held in his name intact, and the building he paid for, is anything other than the most hypocritical virtue signalling.

I hope no philanthropist gives a penny to Oxford, and especially Oriel ever again. They are not worthy of it, they are a complete disgrace. And they don't even believe it, all done though fear of the mob.

Pathetic.
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Pinkisk
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Oriel college have decided that Rhodes should fall.
https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...versial-statue

The Victorian-era statue of Rhodes that faces High St in Oxford is to be taken down and the college is to enter into a process of historical analysis of Rhodes' relationship with Oxford and Oriel and the scholarship bequest, via an independent commission.

"Oriel College voted on Wednesday to launch an independent commission of inquiry into the key issues surrounding the Rhodes statue. A spokesperson said in a statement that they had “expressed their wish to remove the statue of Cecil Rhodes … This is what they intend to convey to the independent commission.”

It isn't final yet that the statue will come down, but this is a welcome step towards removal. It is supported by a number of other heads of colleges.
These are unfortunately very superficial changes of the type that institutionalised racism adores. Removal of these statues suggests change, when in actual fact no such change has taken place. Removal of these statues gives the impression of change, but there is no change. Besides the removal of a statue about which most are ignorant, nothing changed. Removal of these statues makes no tangible difference for victims of racism at these universities, where racism is unfortunately much bigger than just statues. It's systematic at every level and pervasive amongst both staff and students.

Three years at Cambridge, racism made life for me a living nightmare. Bullying by both staff and students destroyed me and my will to succeed. I was barely scraping a pass. I did not free myself of these shackles of racism at Cambridge until I left on the advice of one of their most senior academics in medicine. The only recourse offered to me was to go away and hunt for success somewhere else, somewhere else where i would be allowed to reach my full potential without having to overcome impossible racial barriers and obstacles, none of which had anything to do with any statue at Cambridge. I transferred to London and now I am averaging a first class honours, a distinction. Because of my identity, I lack the same freedoms/choice as my white counterparts. This is not fair. By the way, this is nothing. I've spoken to BAME students who have suffered exploitation and abuse much worse than this.

Removal of statues is not going to make any difference whatsoever for victims of institutionalised racism at these universities. For palpable change to take place, universities must do a lot more than just remove this superficial lawyer of racism that manifest itself in statues, paintings, names of departments etc. No, society has to dig deep and change must not only be at the superficial level, but at the root and not only at the hands of these institutions, but at the hands of their victims.
Last edited by Pinkisk; 3 weeks ago
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generallee
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Oxford philosophy courses already include material about Arab World medieval philosophy.

It would be a positive thing to widen and deepen non-Eurocentric visions of philosophy to include the learnings of, for example, India and China - unless you also view those as underdeveloped and primitive?
The medieval Arab world had some noteworthy philosophers, far exceeding those of Western Europe which was comparatively intellectually bereft at the time.

And I certainly think the philosophy of India and China is worthy of study, although I wouldn't accord them the importance of the European tradition.

But sub Saharan African philosophers? Well you enlighten me, I am a Eurocentric racist, steeped in ignorance, so perhaps my ignorance is understandable if not forgivable. I am sure you can tell me all about them, as a product of the enlightened Oxford of today...

Black Philosophers' Lives Matter!

Who is the sub Saharan Socrates? The African Aristotle? The Locke from Lesotho?
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Fullofsurprises
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#18
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(Original post by generallee)
The medieval Arab world had some noteworthy philosophers, far exceeding those of Western Europe which was comparatively intellectually bereft at the time.

And I certainly think the philosophy of India and China is worthy of study, although I wouldn't accord them the importance of the European tradition.

But sub Saharan African philosophers? Well you enlighten me, I am a Eurocentric racist, steeped in ignorance, so perhaps my ignorance is understandable if not forgivable. I am sure you can tell me all about them, as a product of the enlightened Oxford of today...

Black Philosophers' Lives Matter!

Who is the sub Saharan Socrates? The African Aristotle? The Locke from Lesotho?
When did sub-Sahara enter the picture? Why did you raise it. No doubt Oxford also won't suddenly be mainlining on Aztec philosophers but I'm not sure what that does for the debate?
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Fullofsurprises
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#19
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(Original post by Pinkisk)
These are unfortunately very superficial changes of the type that institutionalised racism adores. Removal of these statues suggests change, when in actual fact no such change has taken place. Removal of these statues gives the impression of change, but there is no change. Besides the removal of a statue about which most are ignorant, nothing changed. Removal of these statues makes no tangible difference for victims of racism at these universities, where racism is unfortunately much bigger than just statues. It's systematic at every level and pervasive amongst both staff and students.

Three years at Cambridge, racism made life for me a living nightmare. Bullying by both staff and students destroyed me and my will to succeed. I was barely scraping a pass. I did not free myself of these shackles of racism at Cambridge until I left on the advice of one of their most senior academics in medicine. The only recourse offered to me was to go away and hunt for success somewhere else, somewhere else where i would be allowed to reach my full potential without having to overcome impossible racial barriers and obstacles, none of which had anything to do with any statue at Cambridge. I transferred to London and now I am averaging a first class honours, a distinction. Because of my identity, I lack the same freedoms/choice as my white counterparts. This is not fair. By the way, this is nothing. I've spoken to BAME students who have suffered exploitation and abuse much worse than this.

Removal of statues is not going to make any difference whatsoever for victims of institutionalised racism at these universities. For palpable change to take place, universities must do a lot more than just remove this superficial lawyer of racism that manifest itself in statues, paintings, names of departments etc. No, society has to dig deep and change must not only be at the superficial level, but at the root and not only at the hands of these institutions, but at the hands of their victims.
I agree that symbolic gestures don't resolve the underlying problem.

However, they are I think useful for stirring debate and they help (some) white people gain awareness of the issues and think about them more. They are tokens of privilege removal.

We need a lot more BAME teachers in all universities. Students need to see people they can identify with when they come to college. There is still a stunning whiteness to Oxbridge colleges, albeit less so than in the past. Access is the other big area that needs a lot more work.
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Napp
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
We need a lot more BAME teachers in all universities. Students need to see people they can identify with when they come to college. There is still a stunning whiteness to Oxbridge colleges, albeit less so than in the past. Access is the other big area that needs a lot more work.
Might one ask why someones melanin levels make them a good teacher? Surely professors and such should be hired exclusively on their academic merit? Not some queer box ticking exercise... After all, knowledge is not dictated by your passport nor ethnicity.
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