Rhodes is falling

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I heard many stories from Black friends in Paris. They were constantly stopped by the Police and asked to prove that they are in France legally. That was in the 1990s - I hope that it has been fixed, but suspect that it hasn't :frown:

It's not really about who's better or worse though - it just needs to stop.

I watched a report on France 24 the other night about the French equivalent of Stop and Search and it was full of the most bitter complaints from black people. As in London, they are frequently stopped for being black in a public place, driving whilst black or being in a nice area whilst black. There are thousands of African-origin people in France wrongly convicted of attacking cops when in fact it was the other way round. Some of the things that happen in the Banlieu districts are very similar to what goes on in US inner cities and amount to police riots.

It's also worth mentioning that the French government have regularly interfered with British efforts in the past to reform Europol and create binding rules for EU-wide policing about respecting human rights and only using violence when attacked.

Reply 61

imlikeahermit

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Bear was making a joke?

I know, my reply wasn't aimed at him! :biggrin:

Reply 62

OxFossil

Original post by RogerOxon

I really hope that the current momentum results in concrete action. I'm no expert, but from what I've heard, Football does have strong measures in place to address racism. The issues of Police brutality and lack of significant progress on tower cladding have, IMO, a large socio-economic aspect, as well as some racism. Police brutality certainly seems aimed at those that they don't expect to take legal action, i.e. the people where they think that they can get away with it.

I'm not a racism activist, nor do I claim to have the answers. I am, however, very good at criticism. I'm also appauled at the actions of US Police in the, far too many (i.e. non-zero), cases of brutality and murder, but want to see real action, not PR stunts.

As for concrete action, whilst not an expert, I want to see US Police Officers:
- Banned from having tasers and guns without a much higher level of training, including first aid;
- Trained to shoot to incapacitate, not always to kill;
- Training to cover the exact circumstances when they can kill, and the consequences for getting it wrong;
- Training to re-enforce that it's OK for a suspect to get away - it's not a reason to shoot them;
- Body cams to be required - you only get paid for the hours of footage submitted.

The US also has an issue with school funding, whit much comiong from local property taxes, based on the value of a property. That gives schools in rich areas a lot more money - the opposite from what is needed, IMO.

In the UK, from what I've seen, the bigger problem is failing schools, typically in poorer areas. There are other challenges, but that is where I woudl focus most, to ensure equal opportunity for all.

Oriel does not claim that "his legacy .. deserves unalloyed, public, celebration and esteem", nor does having his statue there do that.

Oriel has only agreed to remove the statue to placate the angry mob. It is not for any logical reason, nor will it make any real difference, IMO. They should have taken action earlier to put it in context, e.g. placing anti-racism banners on the college. The university is now taking, IMO, the wrong action, in offering Black-only scholarships.

Thanks for that. I don't think many people on those BLM demos would disagree with much of your comments. The trouble is that none of those eminently reasonable suggestions is new, and none of them has been actioned. There were 35 specific recommendations in the 2017 Lammy review on racial bias in the criminal justice system; 110 recommendations in the 2016/17 review by Dame Angiolini into deaths into police custody (the following year there were 35 additional deaths); 30 recommendations in the Home Office review into the Windrush scandal; 26 in Baroness McGregor-Smith’s 2015 review into workplace discrimination.

In this context, Boris's response to the BLM protests - "let's set up another review" betrays a total failure to understand or even show an interest in the lives of Black Britons. Even Tory MPs have gone public with their dismay.

The slightly off-centre nature of both the Rhodes protest and the Oxford Uni responses are the actions of people who are utterly frustrated at the unwillingness of the Government to do its job to act on wider and more fundamental wrongs. The protestors are left shouting at statues and the University is left scratching its collective head and wondering "how the hell can we change the whole educational system on our own...er, maybe a few scholarships will show willing?"

PS thanks for not pointing out another failure in my Oxford geography. Rhodes House is on South Parks Road of course

Reply 63

TimmonaPortella

Original post by OxFossil

History is by its nature a dynamic discipline. Unearthing new material and reinterpreting old material is literally what historians do all day. Read early Roman histories and you will find them rammed to the gills with accounts and interpretations that laud the Roman Empire, retail accounts that purport to demonstrate that "barbarian" peoples are inferior and deserved to be conquered and subjugated. Should we take our understanding from those accounts? Or do we revise and reinterpret them in the light of later history?

It is not only a demonstrable fact, but an inevitability, that the significance of historical figures will undergo revision with time. Some figures once thought to be of giant stature will turn out to be trivial. Previously unregarded people will turn out to have been much more significant than had been appreciated. Groups of people hitherto ignored will come to be seen as having important, and different, perspectives. That's why there is little concern about the removal of the heroic statues of Lenin and Stalin in Eastern Europe. In doing that, have the Latvian or Polish people "attacked their heritage" or "erased them from history"?

The removal of the Rhodes statue isn't "disowning the past" tout court. There are, and there will continue to be, many volumes of history describing and analysing Rhodes' life and legacy. The whole infrastructure of the Rhodes scholarships remain. Rhodes House remains. What is disowned is rather the crude message the statue proclaims. The statue is a heroic figure, erected high abover the main entrance of an important Oford college, and overlooking the High Street. It does nothing but proclaim that Cecil Rhodes is a man still held in high esteem here. And just as we see it as legitimate to revise our view of Roman expansionism, it's legitimate to revise our assessment of the legacy of Cecil Rhodes. Removing the statue to a setting where it can be put in a wider, wiser context allows us to do that.

Spoilered so as not to take up way too much space in the thread.

Spoiler

Bye bye Rhodes :ike:

Original post by OxFossil

In this context, Boris's response to the BLM protests - "let's set up another review" betrays a total failure to understand or even show an interest in the lives of Black Britons. Even Tory MPs have gone public with their dismay.

It's getting increasingly difficult for the government to trot out the tired old "let's have an enquiry/review/commission" trick every time a crisis pops up. People no longer believe they will be independent, timely or be acted on.