Bame students - the attainment gap

Original post by TigerRoll

So BAME students are still getting lower marks despite anonymous marking?

exactly. So its not so simple! coursework, theses etc and other assessments are not anonymous are they?

Reply 61

TigerRoll

16

Original post by mgi

exactly. So its not so simple! coursework, theses etc and other assessments are not anonymous are they?

So how do you propose we get BAME students like myself higher grades (not that it's ever been a problem for me)?

Reply 62

Original post by mgi

How do you know? Its j"arring" to you because you simply are unaware and simply relying on your own prior lack of knowledge!
https://studentnewspaper.org/student-experience-column-anonymous-marking-alone-wont-stop-racial-discrimination-at-university/

Thanks for the source because it actually supports the view I hold. As you can see, grades were overall higher when anonymous marking was used. They even mentioned that the marking difference was not steep and managed to control factors such as ethnicity and gender, so its evident that there can't be any racism against BAME students at university. So this leads to the social factors about how different types of people study etc or are naturally clever. You've actually concluded from this that the university marking system had racial bias initially (which I mentioned) but now that factor has been significantly restricted and so other factors should come into play.

Reply 63

Original post by mgi

exactly. So its not so simple! coursework, theses etc and other assessments are not anonymous are they?

Depends on the course, some courses are primarily coursework and others are mainly written.

Reply 64

Original post by TigerRoll

So how do you propose we get BAME students like myself higher grades (not that it's ever been a problem for me)?

Well of course you obviously have to get yourself organised and get youself to peak performance as consistently as you can!

But there are also other things you can do which require more courage and determination:

Ask questions of course leaders at your uni for reasons as to why most work that is given in cannot be anonymised while it is being marked. Ask for the markschemes afterwards for every piece of assessed material that you give in. Compare with students of other ethnicities!

Get involved in BAME activities in your uni.

Report any form of racial abuse and racist disrespect to the authorities in your uni who are required to investigate your complaint.

Do not fear repercussions; its about helping improve future BAME students'chances as well as your own!

And ignore the naysayers who will tell you that racism at uni does not exist! Just read some of the plethora of evidence.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/tackling-racial-harassment-universities-challenged.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiTtduh6bPqAhUuQhUIHW87Dx8QFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3dDIajNCKykfeHhgsI-qoC
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/jul/05/uk-universities-condemned-for-failure-to-tackle racism&ved=2ahUKEwiTtduh6bPqAhUuQhUIHW87Dx8QFjACegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3MsZGdLSDwc5C7uXmj1tzG

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/16/still-much-racism-universities-12294077/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjatuSu7bPqAhU4SxUIHQb7D7oQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0IjZDa71wwICugwwjgf-fe&ampcf=1

Reply 65

TigerRoll

16

Original post by mgi

Well of course you obviously have to get yourself organised and get youself to peak performance as consistently as you can!

But there are also other things you can do which require more courage and determination:

Ask questions of course leaders at your uni for reasons as to why most work that is given in cannot be anonymised while it is being marked. Ask for the markschemes afterwards for every piece of assessed material that you give in. Compare with students of other ethnicities!

Get involved in BAME activities in your uni.

Report any form of racial abuse and racist disrespect to the authorities in your uni who are required to investigate your complaint.

Do not fear repercussions; its about helping improve future BAME students'chances as well as your own!

And ignore the naysayers who will tell you that racism at uni does not exist! Just read some of the plethora of evidence.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/tackling-racial-harassment-universities-challenged.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiTtduh6bPqAhUuQhUIHW87Dx8QFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3dDIajNCKykfeHhgsI-qoC
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/jul/05/uk-universities-condemned-for-failure-to-tackle racism&ved=2ahUKEwiTtduh6bPqAhUuQhUIHW87Dx8QFjACegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3MsZGdLSDwc5C7uXmj1tzG

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/16/still-much-racism-universities-12294077/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjatuSu7bPqAhU4SxUIHQb7D7oQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0IjZDa71wwICugwwjgf-fe&ampcf=1

Well all the assessments for my current degree and my previous degree (except my dissertations) at a different university were anonymised so that's that problem sorted.

Not that many BAME activities at my university and those that exist don't all interest me. Will keep an eye out for those that do.

Don't think there's been any racism on my course thankfully (small cohort), and my university doesn't have a reputation for it either. However, as it's a healthcare course we've suggested to out tutors that when we study diseases with particular skin presentations, that we see how the manifest in a variety of skin types.

If I ever feel like I'm encountering any actual racism though I'll be sure to report it.

So far the old working to get the grades I deserve has been a good tactic. Will make sure to carry on with that.

Reply 66

Original post by TigerRoll

Well all the assessments for my current degree and my previous degree (except my dissertations) at a different university were anonymised so that's that problem sorted.

Not that many BAME activities at my university and those that exist don't all interest me. Will keep an eye out for those that do.

Don't think there's been any racism on my course thankfully (small cohort), and my university doesn't have a reputation for it either. However, as it's a healthcare course we've suggested to out tutors that when we study diseases with particular skin presentations, that we see how the manifest in a variety of skin types.

If I ever feel like I'm encountering any actual racism though I'll be sure to report it.

So far the old working to get the grades I deserve has been a good tactic. Will make sure to carry on with that.

Good. great post. And i wish you every success.😀

Reply 67

Original post by mgi

Well of course you obviously have to get yourself organised and get youself to peak performance as consistently as you can!

But there are also other things you can do which require more courage and determination:

Ask questions of course leaders at your uni for reasons as to why most work that is given in cannot be anonymised while it is being marked. Ask for the markschemes afterwards for every piece of assessed material that you give in. Compare with students of other ethnicities!

Get involved in BAME activities in your uni.

Report any form of racial abuse and racist disrespect to the authorities in your uni who are required to investigate your complaint.

Do not fear repercussions; its about helping improve future BAME students'chances as well as your own!

And ignore the naysayers who will tell you that racism at uni does not exist! Just read some of the plethora of evidence.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/tackling-racial-harassment-universities-challenged.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiTtduh6bPqAhUuQhUIHW87Dx8QFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3dDIajNCKykfeHhgsI-qoC
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2019/jul/05/uk-universities-condemned-for-failure-to-tackle racism&ved=2ahUKEwiTtduh6bPqAhUuQhUIHW87Dx8QFjACegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3MsZGdLSDwc5C7uXmj1tzG

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/16/still-much-racism-universities-12294077/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjatuSu7bPqAhU4SxUIHQb7D7oQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0IjZDa71wwICugwwjgf-fe&ampcf=1

Yeah same here as a BAME student I do think the marking has been fair and accurate representation of my ability. I do think its absurd to think that that there is a bias in university assessments if the assessments are being anonymously marked.
There have only been 2 times where I haven't done as well and both the reasons was because I didn't put any effort and didn't fully revise. For me getting a good grade isn't based on your ethnicity, its whether you have studied hard. If you put the hours you will get a decent grade, if a particular ethnicity isn't getting high grades, its not because of their ethnicity but maybe the fact that they didn't try for their exam (which its more likely to be). Remember correlation doesn't always mean causation.

Reply 68

Original post by bingbong9214

Yeah same here as a BAME student I do think the marking has been fair and accurate representation of my ability. I do think its absurd to think that that there is a bias in university assessments if the assessments are being anonymously marked.
There have only been 2 times where I haven't done as well and both the reasons was because I didn't put any effort and didn't fully revise. For me getting a good grade isn't based on your ethnicity, its whether you have studied hard. If you put the hours you will get a decent grade, if a particular ethnicity isn't getting high grades, its not because of their ethnicity but maybe the fact that they didn't try for their exam (which its more likely to be). Remember correlation doesn't always mean causation.

But this is simply not what i am saying. And we are not just talking about your experience. Your view contradicts even the government's own admission that there is a problem. There are all sorts of reasons as to why particular groups of students can struggle at uni with exams because of their ethnicity. Rather than just giving your " i don't think so" opinion read the gov.uk artcle:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/universities-must-do-more-to-tackle-ethnic-disparity

Reply 69

Blaze_3103

6

You really need to look at the statistics and also understand what people value. In Indian Asian/ Chinese Asian cultures, education is very important and they understand that it's a way of bettering yourself - getting a high paying job so they put a lot of pressure or emphasis on studying.

You will probably find that those who actually value their education and aren't there for a laugh will get good grades

Also look at the grade requirements for each course . Some it's harder to get a 2:1 - engineering is a lot harder than English for example.

Really winds me up that people are trying to make education a race problem when there is equal opportunity in the UK for sure.

Reply 70

Original post by Blaze_3103

You really need to look at the statistics and also understand what people value. In Indian Asian/ Chinese Asian cultures, education is very important and they understand that it's a way of bettering yourself - getting a high paying job so they put a lot of pressure or emphasis on studying.

You will probably find that those who actually value their education and aren't there for a laugh will get good grades

Also look at the grade requirements for each course . Some it's harder to get a 2:1 - engineering is a lot harder than English for example.

Really winds me up that people are trying to make education a race problem when there is equal opportunity in the UK for sure.

This is exactly what I'm talking about glad to see someone making sense!

Reply 71

Original post by Blaze_3103

You really need to look at the statistics and also understand what people value. In Indian Asian/ Chinese Asian cultures, education is very important and they understand that it's a way of bettering yourself - getting a high paying job so they put a lot of pressure or emphasis on studying.

You will probably find that those who actually value their education and aren't there for a laugh will get good grades

Also look at the grade requirements for each course . Some it's harder to get a 2:1 - engineering is a lot harder than English for example.

Really winds me up that people are trying to make education a race problem when there is equal opportunity in the UK for sure.

But again you are missing the point and therefore getting wound up!You are simply stating your anecdotal stereotyping opinions. What facts have you actually got? You have not cited one article or reference or anything to substantiate your opinions at all. Where is your evidence that enginereng is harder than English at uni for example?
Why are you ignoring the plethora of research data regarding concerns about equal opportunities at university- in favour of simply your opinions?
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/oct/23/universities-must-stop-covering-up-racism-in-order-to-protect-their-own-reputations
https://www.unison.org.uk/news/press-release/2019/10/universities-must-tackle-shocking-levels-racism-says-unison/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/03/16/still-much-racism-universities-12294077/amp/

(edited 3 years ago)

Reply 72

Original post by bingbong9214

This is exactly what I'm talking about glad to see someone making sense!

But it actually is not correct. It just racial stereotyping! He has not quoted you one single reference that you could read. A lot if research data directly contradicts what you you and he believes!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/03/16/still-much-racism-universities-12294077/amp/

Reply 73

Original post by bingbong9214

This is exactly what I'm talking about glad to see someone making sense!

But there is an issue here because you are simply ignoring the evidence that i have put in some recent previous posts. You are simply just repeating yourself! Why dont you read the links i have provided previously for you because you are not correct regarding the views in your recent post! Are you a BAME student? i find it really hard to believe that a BAME University student would insist on the views that you are presenting!

Reply 74

Blaze_3103

6

Original post by mgi

But again you are missing the point and therefore getting wound up!You are simply stating your anecdotal stereotyping opinions. What facts have you actually got? You have not cited one article or reference or anything to substantiate your opinions at all. Where is your evidence that enginereng is harder than English at uni for example?
Why are you ignoring the plethora of research data regarding concerns about equal opportunities at university- in favour of simply your opinions?
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/oct/23/universities-must-stop-covering-up-racism-in-order-to-protect-their-own-reputations
https://www.unison.org.uk/news/press-release/2019/10/universities-must-tackle-shocking-levels-racism-says-unison/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2020/03/16/still-much-racism-universities-12294077/amp/

1) don't use a newspaper as evidence as they don't use statistics objectively either
2) How is this any different from quoting opinions?

https://dera.ioe.ac.uk/23653/1/HEFCE2015_diffout.pdf

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=BAME+student+attainment+gap+&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3Dc59tXrQYxFAJ

Read the above papers- basically says students should use the resources available and some don't- so don't achieve the grades

Also are you focussing on UK / native based BAME students or BAME as a whole?
Also makes a massive difference to the stats as you then could introduce integration and language as potential barriers.

Reply 75

Nox97

12

As a black recent graduate I noticed a few things during my undergraduate. In my course in 1st year we started out as on average 12 black people. 10/12 had been enrolled into ESOL English at school (not because they didn’t understand English or speak it, but because their school decided that it’ll be easier for these kids to progress to A-level). These kids lacked basic critical analysis skills. Writing essays, especially dissertation was a struggle.

Also, for me I had other responsibilities. As a graduate student you would expect me to fund myself by working part-time, which is normal for most grads. But for me, my mum is a single mother of 2, working 2 jobs - 7days a week- and yet still struggles financially. So not only did I have uni stress but I also had my mum calling me at 3am begging for money for her to get the train to work in 2hrs. She would sometimes call me, worried about making rent. It took a huge, I mean huge toll on me.

In my final year, there were only 3black students who I started my course with. Others left due to struggling with uni, family issues and mental health issues.
I’m not saying this only affects black people but black people are suffering in silence at uni. This ‘gap’ is a result of everything else they face in society. It’s hard. Especially for first generation immigrants.

Reply 76

Original post by Blaze_3103

1) don't use a newspaper as evidence as they don't use statistics objectively either
2) How is this any different from quoting opinions?

https://dera.ioe.ac.uk/23653/1/HEFCE2015_diffout.pdf

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=BAME+student+attainment+gap+&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3Dc59tXrQYxFAJ

Read the above papers- basically says students should use the resources available and some don't- so don't achieve the grades

Also are you focussing on UK / native based BAME students or BAME as a whole?
Also makes a massive difference to the stats as you then could introduce integration and language as potential barriers.

Listen, if you look at my recent posts you will find refernces to research work carried out. They are not simply opinions!
Are you seriously suggesting to me that failing to use "resources" is the reason for BAME issues regarding racism at uni?
Language barriers? literacy assessments are made by manh uni prior to update of courses!.
And your second document reference that you posted is actually quite interesting! Did yiu actually read it? Its barely mentions"resources" snd mentions unconscious biss and the need for diversity training for uni staff and a number of other measures to help combat BAME negative experiences at uni. Ut is a shsme you didn't anslyse the refernce; you would have move away from your "resources" argument i suspect. But that is if you want to add to your knowledge of the very real issues

(edited 3 years ago)

Reply 77

looloo2134

17

Original post by mgi

You are simply addicted to racial stereotyping of black/white people versus asian people. And not a piece of supporting published data and research.
And what does this statement mean:"remove race/ethnicity, the interviewer will still see you face to face," If an interviewer can see you then your race/ethnicity cannot be removed! lol. ??

A lot of white people think university a waste of time and money unless it give you training for employment like nursing, medicine etc.

Reply 78