China forces birth control on Uighurs and other minorities

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04MR17
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(Original post by excitedpresent)
Why though? History does have a tendency to repeat itself...
Because the discussion doesn't seem to be very productive so far, we're in the news forum not the history forum and perhaps we are able to discuss the events of 2020 without needing to bring in 1941.
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excitedpresent
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(Original post by PTMalewski)
How about being shot or beaten to death for smallest offences, like saying something your oppressors don' like or having food you were not supposed to have, being frozen alive or having gasoline injected to their veins?
That's what was happening during the Holocaust. You just can't say that A is equal to B, even if both are on the negative side of the line, but values differ.
And how do we know these same things aren't happening in china? We know China is extremely secretive, for all we know similar torture is being done to the muslims there.

I can't say one is equal to the other, but making the comparison between them is perfectly valid. During the holocaust, do you think everyone knew the details about what was going on? It was only until afterwards we found out the true extent of the treatment of the jews by the nazis. It's likely something similar may be found with China and the muslims.
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excitedpresent
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Because the discussion doesn't seem to be very productive so far, we're in the news forum not the history forum and perhaps we are able to discuss the events of 2020 without needing to bring in 1941.
Generally news and history are often related. It's valid to make these comparisons because we find a lot of parallels between history and what is happening in current news. Surely even you can see the similarities between the holocaust and what's happening with these muslims?

I would argue it adds more depth to the discussion. We're not being offensive, this is an adult conversation.
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uberteknik
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(Original post by excitedpresent)
I don't see how copy and pasting from another user answers my question ?
It's a response to both your and Malewski's posts where you both disagreed about whether holocaust-genocide is an appropriate description for what is happening to the Uighurs.

I suggested the situation is perhaps alternately described as eugenics, which was the Nazi precursor and justification for genocide in the 'final solution'. No less abhorrent.

What we do not have is evidence for the systematic murder of the Uighur population through execution.
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PTMalewski
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(Original post by uberteknik)
It's a response to both yours and Malewski's posts where you both disagreed about whether holocaust-genocide is an appropriate description of what is happeneing to the Uighurs.

I suggested the situation is perhaps more appropriate to describe it as eugenics which was the Nazi precursor and justification for genocide in the 'final solution'.

No less abhorrent. What we do not have evidence for is the systematic murder of the Uighur population through execution.
I agree.
I am only afraid that either they'll keep doing what they are doing, either we will see the historically accurate remake of the Final Solution. Especially if there will be more terrorist attacks in China.
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uberteknik
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(Original post by PTMalewski)
I agree.
I am only afraid that either they'll keep doing what they are doing, either we will see the historically accurate remake of the Final Solution. Especially if there will be more terrorist attacks in China.
My thoughts entirely having alluded to it in a post earlier (#29 on in this thread), where I mentioned the time-bomb clock is ticking.

Yesterday we heard calls from the Uighur's (who had managed to flee China) for the 'especially Muslim world' to rally and help remove their plight. No doubt this will be seen as placing more political and economic pressure from the Muslim world and some will see it as a call to jihad. Would not be surprised if we see a fatwah on Jingping's head.

Tensions will be ratcheted up further next year between the U.K. and China, when the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group forms with squadrons of F35's from both the R.N. and U.S. Marine Corps embarking and sailing together with type 45 destroyers, type 23 frigates and no doubt an Astute class nuclear submarine with support vessels - all heading into the heavily contested South China seas region.

Again, I would not be surprised if the U.S. commits one or two U.S. CSG's to the region either simultaneously or in succession.

Expect the news feeds and social media to go into overdrive, especially as it will be immediately preceded by the new visa for qualified Hong Kong emigrants in January and counter sanctions from China.

Oh, I almost forgot. Then there is the winter of Covid19/21 coming to a town near you!
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PTMalewski
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(Original post by uberteknik)
My thoughts entirely having alluded to it in a post earlier (#29 on in this thread), where I mentioned the time-bomb clock is ticking.

Yesterday we heard calls from the Uighur's (who had managed to flee China) for the 'especially Muslim world' to rally and help remove their plight. No doubt this will be seen as placing more political and economic pressure from the Muslim world and some will see it as a call to jihad. Would not be surprised if we see a fatwah on Jingping's head.
It would be interesting to see sinologist's opinion on it.
My simplistic and incompent understanding of this situation is that China wants to curb the Muslims, as even Muslims are afraid of each other, and triggering more Muslim radicalism can only help them in justifying their actions, or even give them a sort of excuse to get rid of them completely.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by uberteknik)
My thoughts entirely having alluded to it in a post earlier (#29 on in this thread), where I mentioned the time-bomb clock is ticking.

Yesterday we heard calls from the Uighur's (who had managed to flee China) for the 'especially Muslim world' to rally and help remove their plight. No doubt this will be seen as placing more political and economic pressure from the Muslim world and some will see it as a call to jihad. Would not be surprised if we see a fatwah on Jingping's head.

Tensions will be ratcheted up further next year between the U.K. and China, when the Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group forms with squadrons of F35's from both the R.N. and U.S. Marine Corps embarking and sailing together with type 45 destroyers, type 23 frigates and no doubt an Astute class nuclear submarine with support vessels - all heading into the heavily contested South China seas region.

Again, I would not be surprised if the U.S. commits one or two U.S. CSG's to the region either simultaneously or in succession.

Expect the news feeds and social media to go into overdrive, especially as it will be immediately preceded by the new visa for qualified Hong Kong emigrants in January and counter sanctions from China.

Oh, I almost forgot. Then there is the winter of Covid19/21 coming to a town near you!
The Xi Jinping regime appears to be willing to go into military confrontations with its neighbours when it wants to - I'm all for ceasing trading relations with China until the regime permits proper democracy at least to some extent and stops imprisoning, murdering, torturing and running slave camps on huge scales. I'm not so much for military confrontation, unless they get really over the top. So far, despite the rhetoric, the CCP have avoided direct action against Taiwan. HK is more problematic given that it is part of China by treaty, albeit they have now broken some of the terms of that treaty. There is considerable danger in playing military escalation games in the South China Sea. Their leader appears to be a bit nuts and unchallenged within the country. He has gambled his popularity, like Putin, on rash international actions.
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uberteknik
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The Xi Jinping regime appears to be willing to go into military confrontations with its neighbours when it wants to - I'm all for ceasing trading relations with China until the regime permits proper democracy at least to some extent and stops imprisoning, murdering, torturing and running slave camps on huge scales. I'm not so much for military confrontation, unless they get really over the top. So far, despite the rhetoric, the CCP have avoided direct action against Taiwan. HK is more problematic given that it is part of China by treaty, albeit they have now broken some of the terms of that treaty. There is considerable danger in playing military escalation games in the South China Sea. Their leader appears to be a bit nuts and unchallenged within the country. He has gambled his popularity, like Putin, on rash international actions.
It's a high stakes strategy for sure. However, unless an alliance of countries are prepared to demonstrate resolve to assert freedom-of-navigation in international waters, Jingping will carry on with his 'acquisitions' regardless. To the alliance end, the U.K. and the U.S. will use the scheduled expedition to confirm fully integrated operations between the two navies. i.e. U.S. and U.K. assets can inter-operate as if they were one navy and therefore acts as a force multiplier.

The whole situation is escalating and with all three of the worlds nuclear superpowers in play, my fear is that with no nuclear arms limitation treaties encompassing China (or soon both the U.S. and Russia), then we will get back to the cold-war style maximum-overkill arming on all sides. Including space based weapons now it seems.

The Trump administration does have method in madness though. Pulling out of the nuclear treaties allows the U.S. to play catch up with regards to the perceived gap in nuclear delivery capability (hypersonic guided and intercontinental cruise weapons). As that time, bargaining parity is also restored and the U.S. will no doubt call for a new nuclear treaty also covering such weapons as well as older ballistic missiles and will include China and Russia, U.K, France, India, Pakistan et. al. Russia at least has a history of compliance. China, none whatsoever.

Stay tuned.

We are in for some scary times.
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Napp
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(Original post by 04MR17)
Because the discussion doesn't seem to be very productive so far, we're in the news forum not the history forum and perhaps we are able to discuss the events of 2020 without needing to bring in 1941.
Ha, that'll be the day :lol:
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excitedpresent
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(Original post by uberteknik)
It's a response to both your and Malewski's posts where you both disagreed about whether holocaust-genocide is an appropriate description for what is happening to the Uighurs.

I suggested the situation is perhaps alternately described as eugenics, which was the Nazi precursor and justification for genocide in the 'final solution'. No less abhorrent.

What we do not have is evidence for the systematic murder of the Uighur population through execution.
It wouldn't surprise me (or anyone for that matter) if they were being executed. There have been reports of torture (see reddit for more on that) of these muslims, clearly the media haven't shown the full force of what's going on here.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by excitedpresent)
It wouldn't surprise me (or anyone for that matter) if they were being executed. There have been reports of torture (see reddit for more on that) of these muslims, clearly the media haven't shown the full force of what's going on here.
They've been executing Uighur intellectuals on trumped up charges in their kangaroo courts for some years now. Some 435 have disappeared since 2017.
https://english.alaraby.co.uk/englis...h-in-crackdown

Leading Uighur scientists have been sentenced to death in absentia.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/stor...iyip-execution

There are allegations that the Chinese body part harvesting programme, which has long targeted their millions of detainees, often people not even charged and many members of various minorities, has been extended to Uighurs so that the organs can be sold to wealthy Arabs.
https://bylinetimes.com/2020/01/24/c...s-gets-darker/

This has been verified by a surgeon who formerly worked in China.
https://www.albawaba.com/node/does-c...arabia-1292235

The Chinese state are routinely selling Uighur slave workers to corporations and other institutions in the country as slave labour.
https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghu...ptV1M_PCYpl4Gf
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excitedpresent
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
They've been executing Uighur intellectuals on trumped up charges in their kangaroo courts for some years now. Some 435 have disappeared since 2017.
https://english.alaraby.co.uk/englis...h-in-crackdown

Leading Uighur scientists have been sentenced to death in absentia.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/stor...iyip-execution

There are allegations that the Chinese body part harvesting programme, which has long targeted their millions of detainees, often people not even charged and many members of various minorities, has been extended to Uighurs so that the organs can be sold to wealthy Arabs.
https://bylinetimes.com/2020/01/24/c...s-gets-darker/

This has been verified by a surgeon who formerly worked in China.
https://www.albawaba.com/node/does-c...arabia-1292235

The Chinese state are routinely selling Uighur slave workers to corporations and other institutions in the country as slave labour.
https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghu...ptV1M_PCYpl4Gf
thank you for providing sources.

uberteknik and PTMalewski and 04MR17 why don't you take a look at these links and then try telling me this isn't comparable with the holocaust?
the treatment of these people is abhorrent and beyond evil
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04MR17
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(Original post by excitedpresent)
thank you for providing sources.

uberteknik and PTMalewski and 04MR17 why don't you take a look at these links and then try telling me this isn't comparable with the holocaust?
the treatment of these people is abhorrent and beyond evil
I didn't say it wasn't comparable with the holocaust, I suggested it wasn't a fruitful source of debate. Those are two different things.
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excitedpresent
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(Original post by 04MR17)
I didn't say it wasn't comparable with the holocaust, I suggested it wasn't a fruitful source of debate. Those are two different things.
So if you agree it's a valid comparison, that would make it valuable for the current debate, no?
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04MR17
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(Original post by excitedpresent)
So if you agree it's a valid comparison, that would make it valuable for the current debate, no?
Again, I haven't disputed this. I suggested it wasn't a fruitful source of debate earlier on in the thread. Not that the point was invalid.
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uberteknik
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(Original post by excitedpresent)
It wouldn't surprise me (or anyone for that matter) if they were being executed. There have been reports of torture (see reddit for more on that) of these muslims, clearly the media haven't shown the full force of what's going on here.
Quite.

China is all about control and conformity. Information must be smuggled out and anything relating to the treatment of the Uyghurs will be suppressed ruthlessly.

Pieces of evidence from satellite images, photo-walls of missing family members, testimonials from escapees, past history of massacres in living memory, forced sterilisation, family separation, the rhetoric of officials using metaphors of 'gardening, weeding, pruning..', are all indicators, which taken together, provides compelling evidence.

Make no mistake, I do not agree in any way whatsoever with what is happening.

The Uyghur camps parallel pre-war Nazi ghetto's and concentration camps and I have no doubt the PRC party have studied history and are attempting to eradicate what they see is a contagion. Exactly the same as the Nazi's.

I'm sure the PRC want to distance their narrative as not the same, to limit damage from international condemnation. I'm also convinced that the PRC would like nothing more than for the whole 'problem' to disappear. History tells us it will not and following the same metaphor, the weeds will reappear stronger and more invasive.

As I said, 'cleansing and assimilation' is the outcome the PRC wants. I say it's genocide by any other name.

I reserve calling it holocaust since the Uyghur population is not yet eradicated and hopefully, the world will place enough pressure on the PRC to ensure it never becomes that.

My fear is that the PRC will not listen and history will be repeated.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by uberteknik)
My fear is that the PRC will not listen.
Yes it's clear that the party leadership have decided that they are completely outside international norms and cannot be touched.

They want their cake and eat it - they want to be part of the global trading community and a respected superpower - whilst reserving the right to flout well established human rights at will. They aren't the only UN member state doing that, but they are doing it on an industrial scale.

It's sick making to have high street corporate names like HSBC backing them up.

We need a global boycott now on all Chinese trade and companies, including HSBC. There must be no rights of travel or western property ownership for CCP members, especially the top members. They are billionaires with extensive western portfolios. These must be cancelled.
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PTMalewski
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The Xi Jinping regime appears to be willing to go into military confrontations with its neighbours when it wants to - I'm all for ceasing trading relations with China until the regime permits proper
Now guess who would they vote for, if they have been indoctrinated by the party for decades? Democracy is a flawed system that should be ended in the West, and in places like China or the Middle East it can only show its flaws at full force.

(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
He has gambled his popularity, like Putin, on rash international actions.
Thank goddess for the lack of proper democracy in Russia, and an intelligent and rational leader Putin is.
You have a proper democracy in Turkey, and as a result, you have that fanatic Erdogan, and much more journalists in prisons than in Russia. And if it wasn't Putin, either Panslavic imperialists either Bolsheviks would have won elections, it would even lead to Russian army stopping not earlier than reaching Germany's borders.

(Original post by excitedpresent)
thank you for providing sources.

uberteknik and PTMalewski and 04MR17 why don't you take a look at these links and then try telling me this isn't comparable with the holocaust?
the treatment of these people is abhorrent and beyond evil
The thing is, you acted on a belief or a hunch. Or at least, that's how I saw it.
If this information is true, the comparision becomes fairly accurate.

(Original post by Fullofsurprises)

We need a global boycott now on all Chinese trade and companies, including HSBC. There must be no rights of travel or western property ownership for CCP members, especially the top members. They are billionaires with extensive western portfolios. These must be cancelled.
Having taken a look at these sources, and knowing what they do in Tibet, I agree. I would even opt for war option, and join the army to go there and fight them. These mobs need to be removed, and replaced not by democracy, but by a meritocratic system.

Of course it will not happen, no country in the West would declare a war for moral reasons.
Shame, sucha beatiful country, such an ancient civilisation and it went so low.
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Napp
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The Xi Jinping regime appears to be willing to go into military confrontations with its neighbours when it wants to - I'm all for ceasing trading relations with China until the regime permits proper democracy at least to some extent and stops imprisoning, murdering, torturing and running slave camps on huge scales. I'm not so much for military confrontation, unless they get really over the top. So far, despite the rhetoric, the CCP have avoided direct action against Taiwan. HK is more problematic given that it is part of China by treaty, albeit they have now broken some of the terms of that treaty. There is considerable danger in playing military escalation games in the South China Sea. Their leader appears to be a bit nuts and unchallenged within the country. He has gambled his popularity, like Putin, on rash international actions.
Thought this might be of interest you based on your post, despite it being from the human sphincter that is IDS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrK_HVGOnUo
Image
Although i would disagree with the last sentence, especially in relation to Moscow. Their actions being very carefully thought out, if somewhat self destructive on occassion. Same applies to Chairman Xi, we might not like it, but as far as a fait accompli through salami tactics go he's managed to best his 'enemies' at every turn, unfortunately. That being said, it seems like he's finally over reached in the past half a decade, and especially recently. The one thing i'll give Trump and his subversive foreign policy credit for is turning the screws on the middle kingdom.
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