Opinion: UK is on its way to complete economic collapse.

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Quady
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#41
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#41
(Original post by PTMalewski)
A decade ago you already head what was over what communist parties wanted to achieve in the west a hundred years ago.

You've not adressed my points at all, you're just talking of accidental stuff. Sure lots of business fail. The higher the taxes, the more must fail. You're also not noticing that even failing businesses give more to the economy than state administration. Even if a business fail, it always either gives money to other people by buying services and stuff, or produces something. The state administration can only steal money from people.
Denying logic with correlations is not a good way of finding solutions. First you need to establish a sytem which can logically work. Only then you could use statistics to watch things too complex for logical thinking abilities.
Wrre you drunk when you wrote that? Read it again, it makes no sense.

Accidental still? Might you mean incidental? The first paragraph is a car crash I can't comprehend.

Have you any evidence the higher the tax take the more businesses fail?

You have no logic without evidence.
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PTMalewski
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#42
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#42
(Original post by Quady)
Have you any evidence the higher the tax take the more businesses fail?

You have no logic without evidence.
I explained step by step, how higher taxes affect starting businesses, and none so far has adressed any of my points.

You're just impolite putting no effort to answering me, and you provide no reasoning either. You don't even have to know anything of economics to adress my points, all you need is some basic training in logic and you're still failing to adress any argument I provided.

(Original post by Quady)
Wrre you drunk when you wrote that?
No, but maybe you should try drinking a bit before engaging in discussions. Very small doses of alcohol make your arteries wider, providing more sugar and oxygen to your braincells, increasing your cognitive abilites. But remember, it has to be just a very small amount. Larger doses will damage your brain before giving you any benefits from consumption.
Last edited by PTMalewski; 3 weeks ago
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Quady
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#43
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#43
(Original post by PTMalewski)
I explained step by step, how higher taxes affect starting businesses, and none so far has adressed any of my points.

You're just impolite putting no effort to answering me, and you provide no reasoning either. You don't even have to know anything of economics to adress my points, all you need is some basic training in logic and you're still failing to adress any argument I provided.



No, but maybe you should try drinking a bit before engaging in discussions. Very small doses of alcohol make your arteries wider, providing more sugar and oxygen to your braincells, increasing your cognitive abilites. But remember, it has to be just a very small amount. Larger doses will damage your brain before giving you any benefits from consumption.
You've explained theory. You've not provided any practical evidence.
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PTMalewski
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#44
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#44
(Original post by Quady)
You've explained theory. You've not provided any practical evidence.
You can't disprove logic with evidence. My argument was based on basic truths, such as 'the cheaper the product, the more people can afford it', and pure logical reasoning, neither of which you adressed.
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Quady
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#45
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#45
(Original post by PTMalewski)
You can't disprove logic with evidence. My argument was based on basic truths, such as 'the cheaper the product, the more people can afford it', and pure logical reasoning, neither of which you adressed.
Your logic is based on a simplistic environment. Country economies aren't so simple.

By your logic Huawei would provide all out 5G infrastructure as its cheapest. Naturally that's just a small example.

Am I to expect my restaurant businesses to be more profitable in August and September than last year as taxes are lower and are being subsidised? Id be surprised.

Sure where you just have one variable - tax take you'd be right. But you are entirely ignoring the use of those taxes. You're assuming tax only reduces demand.
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illegaltobepoor
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#46
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#46
(Original post by Anonymous)
The current pandemic which has affected the economy very adversely. Millions are going to be job less and unemployed . UK has no natural resources or manufacturing and relies wholly on services and tourism (which has come to a halt due to covid). And now the PM wants to give citizenship to Hong Kong citizens, which is going to exacerbate the situation further as initially most will need affordable council housing and welfare benefits to adjust, as there arent many jobs.
Venzuela an oil rich country collapsed a few years ago. I think UK could be heading in the same direcction
Yes and I am going to profit immensely.

Got Gold, Silver and Platinum, Cryptocurrency, Mining Stocks and Rural Property.

I love recessions. So easy to make money.
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Quady
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#47
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#47
(Original post by illegaltobepoor)
Yes and I am going to profit immensely.

Got Gold, Silver and Platinum, Cryptocurrency, Mining Stocks and Rural Property.

I love recessions. So easy to make money.
Easy for the disabled to make money in recessions yes.
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IbeIC123
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#48
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#48
(Original post by PTMalewski)
A decade ago you already head what was over what communist parties wanted to achieve in the west a hundred years ago.

You've not adressed my points at all, you're just talking of accidental stuff. Sure lots of business fail. The higher the taxes, the more must fail. You're also not noticing that even failing businesses give more to the economy than state administration. Even if a business fail, it always either gives money to other people by buying services and stuff, or produces something. The state administration can only steal money from people.
Denying logic with correlations is not a good way of finding solutions. First you need to establish a sytem which can logically work. Only then you could use statistics to watch things too complex for logical thinking abilities.





Good luck with working on anything while drowning in dirt. The point of hiring a cleaner is that people with higher qualifications don't have to waste their time on cleaning the workplace.



Okay, maybe the next time you try, you will be able to deliver some logical reasoning instead of pure instults. This time you've failed. If you actually understood how economy works, you would have explained where am I wrong, instead of throwing the rough comparision without adressing what do I know or say. You don't even seem to know what the word 'dogma' means.
Ever heard of stock buy backs
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illegaltobepoor
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#49
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#49
(Original post by Quady)
Easy for the disabled to make money in recessions yes.
ive been preparing ever since 2008.
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PTMalewski
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#50
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#50
(Original post by Quady)
Your logic is based on a simplistic environment. Country economies aren't so simple.
They aren't but it's a basic economic rule, that higher prices of producs reduce demand, and taxes are something that makes prices higher.
Just because there are more factors than supply and demand, you can't just ignore it. That's why in this crisis, the government lowers taxes.

(Original post by Quady)
By your logic Huawei would provide all out 5G infrastructure as its cheapest. Naturally that's just a small example.
By my logic, if customer can spend less money on the things he needs, he might spend the spared money on further products which creates space on the market for new companies.

The reasons why Huawei doesn't provide 5G all out, are various and not really related to economy, but to technological difficulties, and the fact there is existing 3G and 4G infrastructure which still produces profits. You can't take a non-economic reason, to disprove an economic rule.

(Original post by Quady)
Am I to expect my restaurant businesses to be more profitable in August and September than last year as taxes are lower and are being subsidised? Id be surprised.
No, but because taxes got significantly lower there is a better chance that income of many people has shrinked, they still might come to your restaurant as thanks to lower prices they can afford eating there inspite of having lower incomes. And if they come, your restaurant business has better chance of survival and might hire more staff than it would if taxes were bigger.

(Original post by Quady)
Sure where you just have one variable - tax take you'd be right. But you are entirely ignoring the use of those taxes. You're assuming tax only reduces demand.
Ah, so you're talking here on providing the basic public services and infrastructure, redistribution, public investments and so on.
Of course some taxes are necessary so the state can have an army, police, courts, hospitals roads and some other services, maybe it's also good to have some redistribution and other things. The trouble is, the more money from taxes the state has, the greater the chance they would be misused. And when that happens, taxes do reduce demand. I believe we can agree on that.
The advantage of free market over the state administration, is that mismanaged private companies simply fall, and are replaced by better ones (unless the states pumps taxpayers money into such companies), while a state that collects too high taxes and misuses them, can hinder the economy for ever.

Your initial argument in this discussion was a correlation, that highly developed states with high taxes have higher GDP growth than undeveloped countries with low taxes. But there is also a correlation that countries with high taxes have very low growth, typically 0-1, 2, sometimes 3%.

It would be interesting to take a look on data that compares countries of similar GDPs and see what is the correlation between taxes and GDP growth. It would tell a lot more.
Last edited by PTMalewski; 2 weeks ago
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_Wellies_
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#51
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#51
(Original post by PTMalewski)
They aren't but it's a basic economic rule, that higher prices of producs reduce demand, and taxes are something that makes prices higher.
Just because there are more factors than supply and demand, you can't just ignore it. That's why in this crisis, the government lowers taxes.



By my logic, if customer can spend less money on the things he needs, he might spend the spared money on further products which creates space on the market for new companies.

The reasons why Huawei doesn't provide 5G all out, are various and not really related to economy, but to technological difficulties, and the fact there is existing 3G and 4G infrastructure which still produces profits. You can't take a non-economic reason, to disprove an economic rule.



No, but because taxes got significantly lower there is a better chance that income of many people has shrinked, they still might come to your restaurant as thanks to lower prices they can afford eating there inspite of having lower incomes. And if they come, your restaurant business has better chance of survival and might hire more staff than it would if taxes were bigger.



Ah, so you're talking here on providing the basic public services and infrastructure, redistribution, public investments and so on.
Of course some taxes are necessary so the state can have an army, police, courts, hospitals roads and some other services, maybe it's also good to have some redistribution and other things. The trouble is, the more money from taxes the state has, the greater the chance they would be misused. And when that happens, taxes do reduce demand. I believe we can agree on that.
The advantage of free market over the state administration, is that mismanaged private companies simply fall, and are replaced by better ones (unless the states pumps taxpayers money into such companies), while a state that collects too high taxes and misuses them, can hinder the economy for ever.

Your initial argument in this discussion was a correlation, that highly developed states with high taxes have higher GDP growth than undeveloped countries with low taxes. But there is also a correlation that countries with high taxes have very low growth, typically 0-1, 2, sometimes 3%.

It would be interesting to take a look on data that compares countries of similar GDPs and see what is the correlation between taxes and GDP growth. It would tell a lot more.
Do you have any formal education in economics?

To put it politely, your grasp of the subject is remarkably simplistic.
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ByEeek
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#52
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#52
(Original post by PTMalewski)
You can't disprove logic with evidence.
You kind of can. Cameron and Osborne believed that austerity, cutbacks and shirinking the size of the state would eliminate the deficit in 5 years. It was obvious logical thinking.

Reality proved otherwise to the extent that hard headed business focussed Sunak has started spending borrowed money in a way that makes Corbyn's Labour manefesto look a bit conservative (with a small 'c' of course!)
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PTMalewski
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#53
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#53
(Original post by _Wellies_)
Do you have any formal education in economics?

To put it politely, your grasp of the subject is remarkably simplistic.
Obviously not. If I had, apparently I would have not voiced any arguments and simply claimed that I know better.

It's really a pity you guys don't engage, it would have been a nice opportunity to learn something as it sounds like you're clamining the cut on VAT won't help, and I'm personally interested why the IMF discouraged Romania years ago from lowering taxes drastically, yet Romania did that in 2015 and got GDP growth rise, or how Chine with their low tax policy is capable of sustaning very high growth values for decades.
If you came up with something better than a single blunt correlation, I would have never started talking on the basics.

(Original post by ByEeek)
You kind of can. Cameron and Osborne believed that austerity, cutbacks and shirinking the size of the state would eliminate the deficit in 5 years. It was obvious logical thinking.
I don't know what was and what wasn't taken into account when these decisions were made, but one of the problems might have been, that in a state which spends a lot, many work places, and consumer's income depends on it.
But it seems, no matter what policy, your GDP growth just goes down and down since the late 80ies.
Last edited by PTMalewski; 2 weeks ago
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ByEeek
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#54
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#54
(Original post by PTMalewski)
But it seems, no matter what policy, your GDP growth just goes down and down since the late 80ies.
I think the bottom line is that the government does have total control of the economy despite what they may say. This recession like the last is being caused by people stopping spending and so the flow of IOUs has dried up.
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Gundabad(good)
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#55
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#55
(Original post by Anonymous)
The current pandemic which has affected the economy very adversely. Millions are going to be job less and unemployed . UK has no natural resources or manufacturing and relies wholly on services and tourism (which has come to a halt due to covid). And now the PM wants to give citizenship to Hong Kong citizens, which is going to exacerbate the situation further as initially most will need affordable council housing and welfare benefits to adjust, as there arent many jobs.
Venzuela an oil rich country collapsed a few years ago. I think UK could be heading in the same direcction
I don't think that will happen.
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paul514
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#56
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#56
(Original post by Anonymous)
The current pandemic which has affected the economy very adversely. Millions are going to be job less and unemployed . UK has no natural resources or manufacturing and relies wholly on services and tourism (which has come to a halt due to covid). And now the PM wants to give citizenship to Hong Kong citizens, which is going to exacerbate the situation further as initially most will need affordable council housing and welfare benefits to adjust, as there arent many jobs.
Venzuela an oil rich country collapsed a few years ago. I think UK could be heading in the same direcction
I completely disagree if the UK collapsed as you put it then so would all the other similar countries and therefore it can’t happen.

Also on the Hong Kong people invited to move here, they have money, they speak English, they are educated and hard working people. They won’t need handouts and council homes on mass.
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