Corbyn slander vs Boris

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Burton Bridge
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#41
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Okey dokey, I'm going to Corbyn like sit on the fence here

The OP lost any credit to their points when they threw the teddy out the pram at ColinDent. However he has a point that Corbyn was ridiculed to the extremities, johnson would never of been PM if he was in the labour party. I mean I can see the edited pictures of wardrobe malfunction, gaffes and cartoons of stuttering idoits, he would be completely ridiculed.

Where I'm in disagreement with Colin is last years election was a one off, johnsons Tory government won on one issue, brexit. It was the brexit election, Corbyn's policies was popular but his leadership, lack of passion on brexit and starmers incoherent brexit policy no leader worth his weight should of allowed to be carried forward. It made Corbyn look totally out of his depth, which to be honest he probably was as is Johnson at present.

I agree with DSilva more often than not and here has not far wrong, I think he credits the polls with more credit than I do but bar that point I agree with him. Where I will disagree with him is bar Scotland I dont believe the country was anti labour, labour had turned anti labour supporter. I didn't vote labour last time because labour left me, I never left labour.
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DSilva
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#42
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Okey dokey, I'm going to Corbyn like sit on the fence here

The OP lost any credit to their points when they threw the teddy out the pram at ColinDent. However he has a point that Corbyn was ridiculed to the extremities, johnson would never of been PM if he was in the labour party. I mean I can see the edited pictures of wardrobe malfunction, gaffes and cartoons of stuttering idoits, he would be completely ridiculed.

Where I'm in disagreement with Colin is last years election was a one off, johnsons Tory government won on one issue, brexit. It was the brexit election, Corbyn's policies was popular but his leadership, lack of passion on brexit and starmers incoherent brexit policy no leader worth his weight should of allowed to be carried forward. It made Corbyn look totally out of his depth, which to be honest he probably was as is Johnson at present.

I agree with DSilva more often than not and here has not far wrong, I think he credits the polls with more credit than I do but bar that point I agree with him. Where I will disagree with him is bar Scotland I dont believe the country was anti labour, labour had turned anti labour supporter. I didn't vote labour last time because labour left me, I never left labour.
Yes. At a general election you don't get to say 'well I want this party's economic policies, another party's immigration policies, a third party's foreign policy and a fourth party's Brexit policy'.

It's a binary choice. And you're right, many people voted the way they did because of Brexit and Corbyn's leadership. That doesn't mean his economic policies were particularly unpopular or have no groundswell of support.

Many people, yourself included, may have gone 'well I agree more with Labour on the economy, but at this election Brexit takes priority'.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by DSilva)
Yes. At a general election you don't get to say 'well I want this party's economic policies, another party's immigration policies, a third party's foreign policy and a fourth party's Brexit policy'.

It's a binary choice. And you're right, many people voted the way they did because of Brexit and Corbyn's leadership. That doesn't mean his economic policies were particularly unpopular or have no groundswell of support.

Many people, yourself included, may have gone 'well I agree more with Labour on the economy, but at this election Brexit takes priority'.
I cant rep you but rep!

I voted Tory as the least worst option, I saw johnson as a Tony blair style borrow and spend centrist economically, slightly to the right socially and someone prepared to grab the nettle leaf and crack on with something, at a time when nobody else wanted to move in ANY direction. The country was falling apart, divided in two with resilience being a thing of the past, resilience isnt a trait of the modern brit.

However never did I reject high taxation, group responsibility, trade unionism, fair pay, equal rights, what I rejected was the lunacy the labour party had became under Corbyn's weak leadership, not socialist polices I share with Corbyn.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by DSilva)
That's a polling fallacy.

The fact you don't personally know anyone who supports a given policy does not mean that policy has no wider support. People tend to hang out and associate with those who have similar views, this happens across the poltical spectrum. We all form our own bubbles. I would guess the vast majority of people I personally know supported remain, yet the majority of people in the country supported leave. Using your own circle of friends to make a broader point about how the country is silly. It's a trap the left consistently fall into and you are doing the same here.





There is all sorts of reading you can do on how different poliing companies choose the make up of their sample. They spend a huge amount of money, time and effort in ensuring their samples roughly represent the UK electorate in terms of age, income, education, gender, employment etc. And by and large they are very accurate. Again, they were pretty much spot on in 2019, as they are in most elections.




I think this is a bit silly. It's perfectly possible that many supported some of Corbyn's economic policies but had big issues on his Brexit stance and leadership. Rejecting a party does not mean you do not support any of its policies.

In any event, over 10 million people did vote Labour at the last election. Obviously they lost badly, but 10 million is still a groundswell of support.
It's not a fallacy, I work in a large company with many people of differing political views, my family was split over the issue of Brexit ( in our views only, none of us ever fell out ) so I'm not talking about a singularly minded group, statistically for this poll to hold any credence you would feel that some of them would be in support of such an opinion.
And no 10m votes does not equal a groundswell when put up against the near 13m votes Mr Corbyn's party gained in 2017.
I do get your point that these companies spend lots of money but don't feel this to be such a black and white issue that you can draw enough of a conclusion from.
Just putting an opposing view to that of the OP and all the subsequent posts up to my interjection.
Maybe we should just have a referendum on the matter.
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ColinDent
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#45
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Okey dokey, I'm going to Corbyn like sit on the fence here

The OP lost any credit to their points when they threw the teddy out the pram at ColinDent. However he has a point that Corbyn was ridiculed to the extremities, johnson would never of been PM if he was in the labour party. I mean I can see the edited pictures of wardrobe malfunction, gaffes and cartoons of stuttering idoits, he would be completely ridiculed.

Where I'm in disagreement with Colin is last years election was a one off, johnsons Tory government won on one issue, brexit. It was the brexit election, Corbyn's policies was popular but his leadership, lack of passion on brexit and starmers incoherent brexit policy no leader worth his weight should of allowed to be carried forward. It made Corbyn look totally out of his depth, which to be honest he probably was as is Johnson at present.

I agree with DSilva more often than not and here has not far wrong, I think he credits the polls with more credit than I do but bar that point I agree with him. Where I will disagree with him is bar Scotland I dont believe the country was anti labour, labour had turned anti labour supporter. I didn't vote labour last time because labour left me, I never left labour.
You disagree with me? How very dare you 🤣
What I would say was yes perhaps there was some over the top stuff when it came to Mr Corbyn but he did not help himself either and was found out to be pretty weak and out of touch with the general electorate in the end.
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DSilva
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#46
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(Original post by ColinDent)
It's not a fallacy, I work in a large company with many people of differing political views, my family was split over the issue of Brexit ( in our views only, none of us ever fell out ) so I'm not talking about a singularly minded group, statistically for this poll to hold any credence you would feel that some of them would be in support of such an opinion.
And no 10m votes does not equal a groundswell when put up against the near 13m votes Mr Corbyn's party gained in 2017.
I do get your point that these companies spend lots of money but don't feel this to be such a black and white issue that you can draw enough of a conclusion from.
Just putting an opposing view to that of the OP and all the subsequent posts up to my interjection.
Maybe we should just have a referendum on the matter.
I could find you many people on the left who would say 'I don't get why people vote for the Tories, I don't know anyone who does'.

Like them, your personal circle isn't repesenstative or even roughly representative of the country as a whole in the way that a poll is. No one's is. And while your firm may have a variety of political views, you are all working in the same firm, in the same industry in the same city. You are not going to get anything like a representative cross sample of the country from it. And in any event do you know each and every colleague's view on the 4 day week? 😜

I'm not saying that polling is perfect, or that you can always conclusively determine the public's views on an issue from polling. However, it is not a legitimate argument to dispute the findings of an accredited poll based on the sample size or because you don't personally know anyone vocal about the issue. Because thats the normal sample size for the vast majority polling which is, and I stress, highly accurate.
Last edited by DSilva; 4 weeks ago
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ColinDent
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#47
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(Original post by DSilva)
But your personal circle isn't repesenstative of the country as a whole in the way that a poll is, no one's is. Believe me, as someone who is on the left, I am constantly having to warn others not to mistake the 'consensus' of their own friends, workmates and social media circles for the country as a whole.

I'm not saying that polling is perfect, or that you can always conclusively determine the public's views on an issue from polling. However, it is not a legitimate argument to dispute the findings of an accredited poll based on the sample size. Because thats the normal sample size for the vast majority polling which is, and I stress, highly accurate.

I'd say 10 million people supporting something is a 'groundswell'. Just as people said UKIP had a 'groundswell' of support despite when they had 4 million votes.
No my circle isn't representative of the country, but the article in question in post#1 states that nearly 2 thirds of the country want the government to look at this.
I think that would mean that everyone in the country is likely to know at least 1 person but more than likely a number of people that would consider this a good and plausible idea.
Trust me I would love to work less hours for the same amount of money, I just know that it's not possible and would lead to either more companies going to the wall or higher taxes as the government would have to come up with a way of helping ailing companies out.
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DSilva
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#48
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(Original post by ColinDent)
No my circle isn't representative of the country, but the article in question in post#1 states that nearly 2 thirds of the country want the government to look at this.
I think that would mean that everyone in the country is likely to know at least 1 person but more than likely a number of people that would consider this a good and plausible idea.
Trust me I would love to work less hours for the same amount of money, I just know that it's not possible and would lead to either more companies going to the wall or higher taxes as the government would have to come up with a way of helping ailing companies out.
I mean unless you've discussed the issue of a 4 day week with everyone you know (has anyone done that? 😜) then I don't think you can say that with certainty. I personally know quite a few people who do support the idea, at least in principle.

I could find you hundreds of lefties who would say 'I don't understand who voted for the Tories, I don't know ANYONE who does'.

You're entitled to think it's a bad idea and a complete non starter that doesn't even merit any sort of trial. That's your prerogative. It doesn't mean the idea isn't broadly popular across the country, at least in principle
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ColinDent
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#49
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(Original post by DSilva)
I mean unless you've discussed the issue of a 4 day week with everyone you know (has anyone done that? 😜) then I don't think you can say that with certainty. I personally know quite a few people who do support the idea, at least in principle.

I could find you hundreds of lefties who would say 'I don't understand who voted for the Tories, I don't know ANYONE who does'.

You're entitled to think it's a bad idea and a complete non starter that doesn't even merit any sort of trial. That's your prerogative. It doesn't mean the idea isn't broadly popular across the country, at least in principle
Of course I haven't spoken to everyone in the company about it, but given the claim of nearly two thirds supporting the idea you would think at least some of the people that I have spoken to about it would show some enthusiasm. Unless you are suggesting that the people I know are an anomaly, which only goes to further support my point about how meaningless this poll is.
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DSilva
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Of course I haven't spoken to everyone in the company about it, but given the claim of nearly two thirds supporting the idea you would think at least some of the people that I have spoken to about it would show some enthusiasm. Unless you are suggesting that the people I know are an anomaly, which only goes to further support my point about how meaningless this poll is.
Not necessarily. Again I take you back to how many lefties are dumbfounded every election because they 'don't know ANYONE who votes Tory'.

I mean I don't get whey anyone would bring the issue of a 4 day week up unprompted! Even if they support it. There are lots of things I guess you support that you rarely speak about.
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Burridge
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#51
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(Original post by ColinDent)
I apologise if my brash talk offends your sensibilities, but I've grown up in a world where straight talking is the order of the day.
“Sorry to interrupt the Corbyn w**nkfest”

There’s straight-talking and then there’s being vulgar and bad-mannered :rolleyes:

(Original post by Gundabad(good))
Sunak should replace Johnson. At least he would get things done.
Sunak is new to this game. I think he could be a powerful force by the time the next election comes around but we need to be realistic - nobody had heard of him until 3 months ago. He’s getting heaps of praise for dishing Treasury money out but he won’t be as popular when he needs to claw it in again.

(Original post by Gundabad(good))
Jeremy Corbyn had absolutely no stance on Brexit. He was also going to sell the Union down the river with his coalition with the SNP.
Support for independence has been creeping up for the past couple of years - big poll out yesterday puts independence 8 points ahead (54% v 46%). The rosy Union days are long gone. Scotland won’t be part of the United Kingdom by the end of the decade.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...s-vote-2904350
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Burridge
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(Original post by DSilva)
Much more accurate than they are given credit for. In the 2019 election, the polls were pretty much spot on. As they were in the European elections last year. As they are globally, in most elections. They are not perfect, but voting aside, they are by far the best indicator of public opinion, on political and other issues, we have.

When people argue polls are unreliable they seem to point to Brexit and the US election in 2016. It needs to be emphasised that in both cases the end result was within the margin of error (+/- 3%) of what the polls were saying. In the US, the polls had Clinton leading nationally by 4%. In the end she won the popular vote by 2%. On Brexit, most polls suggested a relatively narrow remain win, in the end it was a relatively narrow leave win. Yet the way its talked about you'd think the polls were 20% out.

Having a sample of 2000 is perfectly valid provided it's representative. Having a larger sample beyond that point can often lead to diminishing returns.
PRSOM

People love to dish dirt on the polls and pollsters. The reality is that when you factor in the margins of error, they’re incredibly reliable and are more so now that ever. Everyone loves to point to Brexit (you’re right about USA 2016) - in fact, across the world the polls are proving themselves time and time again, it’s just that when they get it right it doesn’t get noticed. Confirmation bias!
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DSilva
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(Original post by Burridge)
PRSOM

People love to dish dirt on the polls and pollsters. The reality is that when you factor in the margins of error, they’re incredibly reliable and are more so now that ever. Everyone loves to point to Brexit (you’re right about USA 2016) - in fact, across the world the polls are proving themselves time and time again, it’s just that when they get it right it doesn’t get noticed. Confirmation bias!
Quite. Both Trump and Brexit were within the margin of error. Polls aren't perfect and sometimes do get it really wrong (2015 UK election for example) but far more often than not they are very accurate. There is nothing to justify this instinctive distrust of polls a lot of people seem to have.

I think a lot of confusion stems from a misunderstanding of what polls are, and what they can and can't tell us.

We all form our own bubbles, all of us. We nearly all end up largely associating with people from similar backgrounds and similar viewpoints. As a result we end up being shocked when we find out lots of people disagree with us.
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Burridge)
“Sorry to interrupt the Corbyn w**nkfest”

There’s straight-talking and then there’s being vulgar and bad-mannered :rolleyes:


Sunak is new to this game. I think he could be a powerful force by the time the next election comes around but we need to be realistic - nobody had heard of him until 3 months ago. He’s getting heaps of praise for dishing Treasury money out but he won’t be as popular when he needs to claw it in again.


Support for independence has been creeping up for the past couple of years - big poll out yesterday puts independence 8 points ahead (54% v 46%). The rosy Union days are long gone. Scotland won’t be part of the United Kingdom by the end of the decade.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...s-vote-2904350
It is very much straight talking, does my working class verbiage upset you 😭
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Burridge
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(Original post by ColinDent)
It is very much straight talking, does my working class verbiage upset you 😭
I'm as working-class as they come, doesn't make me bad-mannered :ahee:
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ColinDent
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(Original post by Burridge)
I'm as working-class as they come, doesn't make me bad-mannered :ahee:
Hmm, then you should be used to people speaking like this to each other.
So you're a working class snowflake, it's the only explanation, because that's just normal chat where I come from.
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DSilva
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Hmm, then you should be used to people speaking like this to each other.
So you're a working class snowflake, it's the only explanation, because that's just normal chat where I come from.
I don't think asking people to debate in a civilised manner (or at least avoiding crude insults) makes someone a 'snowflake'.
Last edited by DSilva; 4 weeks ago
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ColinDent
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(Original post by DSilva)
I don't think asking people to debate in a civilised manner (or at least avoiding crude insults) makes someone a 'snowflake'.
I wouldn't have called what I said an insult, it was a statement of fact.
Certain people will not let go of the whole Corbyn thing, and for them (like at the beginning of this thread) it does turn into a Corbyn wankfest.
Corbyn is done, get over it.
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the bear
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Corbyn was rejected by normal people at the election. His sad version of Stalinism had strictly limited appeal to the British Public.
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Burridge
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(Original post by ColinDent)
Hmm, then you should be used to people speaking like this to each other.
So you're a working class snowflake, it's the only explanation, because that's just normal chat where I come from.
I’m very used to hearing people say a lot worse as part of ‘normal chat’, doesn’t mean it’s acceptable does it? This is an online debating forum, there’s no need to be ill-mannered or rude. It isn’t really a class issue, just about a bit of common-courtesy.
Last edited by Burridge; 4 weeks ago
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