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The UCAS 'chat' thread for all 2009 hopeful medics... watch

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    (Original post by Kinkerz)
    Based on that little hissy-fit, did they make a bad decision? The sheer level of single-mindedness you've just exhibited in that post - throwing a tantrum because one of your choices has rejected you, when the other three have given you interviews - suggests they didn't.




    Irrelavant.
    i only applied to 3 med schools and i have 2 choices left which is why i am panicking especially when the chances of me getting an offer are like 25%
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    (Original post by gm88)
    i only applied to 3 med schools and i have 2 choices left which is why i am panicking especially when the chances of me getting an offer are like 25%
    If it makes you feel any better, I have 1 interview and all other rejections. And the competition for after this particular interview is incredibly fierce. I understand you're disappointed but to get 3 interviews with BCCD is a great achievement.
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    (Original post by gm88)
    i only applied to 3 med schools and i have 2 choices left which is why i am panicking especially when the chances of me getting an offer are like 25%
    I've been rejected by two places - including my favourite - and am very likely to bag another; Nottingham. My chance this year hangs with one medical school, Keele. So you're really not in all that bad a position.
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    The number of exceptional candidates that I know with 3, verging on 4, med rejections truly is shocking. L6th - be warned.
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    (Original post by ADREAM)
    The number of exceptional candidates that I know with 3, verging on 4, med rejections truly is shocking. L6th - be warned.
    Yeah I look at other people (who have better GCSEs, UKCAT) and they are being rejected whereas I have still got all 4 without any news other than having an interview at Keele and going on the waiting list.. I really did try in my personal statement though, so I think this is very important.
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    (Original post by Alex D)
    If it makes you feel any better, I have 1 interview and all other rejections. And the competition for after this particular interview is incredibly fierce. I understand you're disappointed but to get 3 interviews with BCCD is a great achievement.
    after calming down now and finding out that a close friend has got her 4th rejection i can appreciate that others are in a much much worse position. i posted just after going on track so was pretty shocked - if someone had to me before applying that notts would interview me and uea wouldn't i would never have believed them. i guess i am very lucky - i just need to get my act together and pull myself together now. sorry for all of your rejections and good luck with the rest of your application.
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    (Original post by terpineol)
    I think you do have to ask why they should do.

    What benefit is it to them?
    To be fair, he does have a 97% average in 4 AS subjects, not to mention 8+ A* in GCSE. In terms of academics he's better than most, so to be turned down because of the BMAT solely (which is supposed to be an indication of academic ability) is "unfair". Especially considering he's probably more academicly able than quite a few other applicants who have been interviewed (because they were able to get 1 more question right in a multiple choice questionnaire).

    So to answer your question, the benefit to them is potentially getting a more able applicant especially when it comes to traditional tests.

    Remember, IF the rejection was based SOLELY on BMAT. IT WAS PURELY AN ACADEMIC DECISION TO REJECT HIM!

    Which considering his other academic accolades, is ludacris!
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    (Original post by Baki)
    To be fair, he does have a 97% average in 4 AS subjects, not to mention 8+ A* in GCSE. In terms of academics he's better than most, so to be turned down because of the BMAT solely (which is supposed to be an indication of academic ability) is "unfair". Especially considering he's probably more academicly able than quite a few other applicants who have been interviewed (because they were able to get 1 more question right in a multiple choice questionnaire).

    So to answer your question, the benefit to them is potentially getting a more able applicant especially when it comes to traditional tests.

    Remember, IF the rejection was based SOLELY on BMAT. IT WAS PURELY AN ACADEMIC DECISION TO REJECT HIM!

    Which considering his other academic accolades, is ludacris!
    Thats a fair comeback, added to which he would not have had the BMAT result at the time of application, unlike those who get rejected on UKCAT and then moan about it.

    In terms of the BMAT break down the essay section (if it still exists) seemed to be the make or break section among my old school freinds applications, which perhaps illustrates a certain amount of diversity.

    That said, at the end of the day how much would it cost for the extra time to be spent reading every application rather than performing a straight deletion of all those under X BMAT score?

    Also the medical school gets its funding per person, unrelated to how good they are in terms of academic history, so there is no notable financial incentive to take such measures to ensure they only take say the most academic.


    I think what I am struggling to grasp here, is why people think that medical schools have a duty to make applications as fair as possible. I accept that one would hope from a ethical point of view that they would, though from a pragmatic perspective its completely impossible.

    Lets try and put some numbers on this.

    When I applied Leeds had 3500 applicants for 250 places.

    2700 of these applicants met all the academic criteria.

    (numbers from one of dads mates who was on the panel at the time)

    Lets say each UCAS form takes 20 minutes to fairly assess. (though personally I think 30 mins is more realistic)

    So thats 900 hours of time, or 22.5 working weeks for each to be done once by one person, and we only do those who met the published academic requirements.

    Now I don't think anyone would condone only one person looking at each form, so lets up that to two.

    45 working weeks, or some-ones yearly salary appears.

    Cost thus far is therefore 20-40 grand, possibly more depending who is doing the reviewing, before we add logistics, any fees to UCAS the unis pay etc etc.

    Now lets bear in mind that the medical schools have from the 10th of october to the end of march to do all this, or twenty weeks. Realistically therefore we need to get this all done fast so we can start interviewing.

    Lets try and read/mark all the forms twice by christmas, so we have a reasonably fair view of all.

    1800 hours of work, over ten weeks assuming we don't work people too hard over christmas (uni term times and all that)

    180 hours a week, lets say we have people doing nothing but this, we need four full time people and one part time.

    Here we run into a problem, is it fair to get some random in just for this? Or would it be fairer to get someone who teaches medicine, or is in the field to read the forms?

    Lets say therefore we get our lecturers to spend some time on it. Twenty lecturers over ten weeks, oh dear, thats nine hours a week. When will they do their research committments etc?


    I think all can agree from that very very basic break down that to do it entirely fairly (pre interview only) isn't viable. As such inevitably some form of filtering is inevitable.
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    (Original post by ADREAM)
    The number of exceptional candidates that I know with 3, verging on 4, med rejections truly is shocking. L6th - be warned.
    Yeah, I'm *****ing it alright. :eek3: :eek3:
    Sounds like next year is going to be a complete nightmare!

    (Sorry for hijacking your thread by the way, 2009-ers. :redface:)
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    (Original post by terpineol)
    Thats a fair comeback, added to which he would not have had the BMAT result at the time of application, unlike those who get rejected on UKCAT and then moan about it.

    In terms of the BMAT break down the essay section (if it still exists) seemed to be the make or break section among my old school freinds applications, which perhaps illustrates a certain amount of diversity.

    That said, at the end of the day how much would it cost for the extra time to be spent reading every application rather than performing a straight deletion of all those under X BMAT score?

    Also the medical school gets its funding per person, unrelated to how good they are in terms of academic history, so there is no notable financial incentive to take such measures to ensure they only take say the most academic.


    I think what I am struggling to grasp here, is why people think that medical schools have a duty to make applications as fair as possible. I accept that one would hope from a ethical point of view that they would, though from a pragmatic perspective its completely impossible.

    Lets try and put some numbers on this.

    When I applied Leeds had 3500 applicants for 250 places.

    2700 of these applicants met all the academic criteria.

    (numbers from one of dads mates who was on the panel at the time)

    Lets say each UCAS form takes 20 minutes to fairly assess. (though personally I think 30 mins is more realistic)

    So thats 900 hours of time, or 22.5 working weeks for each to be done once by one person, and we only do those who met the published academic requirements.

    Now I don't think anyone would condone only one person looking at each form, so lets up that to two.

    45 working weeks, or some-ones yearly salary appears.

    Cost thus far is therefore 20-40 grand, possibly more depending who is doing the reviewing, before we add logistics, any fees to UCAS the unis pay etc etc.

    Now lets bear in mind that the medical schools have from the 10th of october to the end of march to do all this, or twenty weeks. Realistically therefore we need to get this all done fast so we can start interviewing.

    Lets try and read/mark all the forms twice by christmas, so we have a reasonably fair view of all.

    1800 hours of work, over ten weeks assuming we don't work people too hard over christmas (uni term times and all that)

    180 hours a week, lets say we have people doing nothing but this, we need four full time people and one part time.

    Here we run into a problem, is it fair to get some random in just for this? Or would it be fairer to get someone who teaches medicine, or is in the field to read the forms?

    Lets say therefore we get our lecturers to spend some time on it. Twenty lecturers over ten weeks, oh dear, thats nine hours a week. When will they do their research committments etc?


    I think all can agree from that very very basic break down that to do it entirely fairly (pre interview only) isn't viable. As such inevitably some form of filtering is inevitable.
    Points system.

    Problem solved.
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    (Original post by Baki)
    Points system.

    Problem solved.
    How do you award points without reading and marking in some way the forms?

    Putting points on a PS is bound to be subjective to the point you would want two people to do it, or at least some form of moderation as in exam marking.
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    (Original post by terpineol)
    How do you award points without reading and marking in some way the forms?

    Putting points on a PS is bound to be subjective to the point you would want two people to do it, or at least some form of moderation as in exam marking.
    I'm not talking about PS points system. Just an academic based one.

    Regarding PS, it can be a checklist for things like evidence of w/exp. etc...
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    (Original post by Baki)
    I'm not talking about PS points system. Just an academic based one.
    Fair point, I guess the question in response to that is are the medical schools given the data in such a manner that you could run a script on it to automate that process. Otherwise we are back to square one.
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    (Original post by terpineol)
    Good point.

    Though its a question I'm going to add to my wonder list of questions applicants should ask themselves before handing their UCAS in.

    Far too many people seem to fail to realize that with silly numbers of applicants per place 80% of application forms are going to be binned for arguably no good reason, as such you have to choose very very carefully where you apply.

    If every admissions panel went through every application completely objectively it would cost an absolute fortune and leave virtually no time for teaching. As such I'm afraid I have little sympathy for those who want to throw their toys out of the pram on the issue.

    That said, I do wish the applicants in question the best of luck with their remaining applications, or there reapplication next year.
    Look at my profile. I got pretty average academics, poor compared to most medical applicants, in at most the bottom 25% I'd say. My UKCAT was average, and my BMAT was ok, not great, ok. However my references were amazing (I only know because they bring them up at every interview, they instead have been used as an indication of my academic ability due to slight problems with my high school with my GCSEs) and my personal statement obviously was pretty good, and I did a lot of Voluntary work. I have had four interviews and just got a place at UCL. I'm the most successful (not bragging here, I'm just shocked) medical applicant at my college, in which there were 30 people applied and most so far have been rejected or are still waiting for decisions. Nobody got into a BMAT uni except me. If they didn't look at my entire form, however, I'd have been screwed. Think of that what you will, but they DO have the ability to at least skim through the rest of the applications rather than just sieving people out. imperial missed out.
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    (Original post by terpineol)
    Fair point, I guess the question in response to that is are the medical schools given the data in such a manner that you could run a script on it to automate that process. Otherwise we are back to square one.
    Or atleast review the more exceptional candidates (ie. ones with 90+ % in AS etc..)

    That shouldn't too time consuming, because applicants with those kind of grades are far and few between.
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    (Original post by Baki)
    I'm not talking about PS points system. Just an academic based one.

    Regarding PS, it can be a checklist for things like evidence of w/exp. etc...
    I believe that is the general form, even so, how does it remove the need to spend 20 minutes or so per applicant marking forms?

    Even if we say ten minutes and one person only doing each one it still presents a prohibitively high amount of man hours to complete the task in such a manner for what can be argued is no real gain.

    (assuming candidates performance, providing they pass, is an irrelevancy to the medical school)
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    Guys and Girls.. Medical applicants shouldn't just have grades above 90% as you don't just need to be academically capable to get into medical school. In fact, I really disagree with this and would base my priority on other things other than capability. Obviously you must be capable, but you need a real passion for the subject, evidence of good work experience and they need to see that you are an active and enthusiastic applicant. Doctors should have good communication skills, team work skills and more.
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    (Original post by Jessaay!)
    Look at my profile. I got pretty average academics, poor compared to most medical applicants, in at most the bottom 25% I'd say. My UKCAT was average, and my BMAT was ok, not great, ok. However my references were amazing (I only know because they bring them up at every interview, they instead have been used as an indication of my academic ability due to slight problems with my high school with my GCSEs) and my personal statement obviously was pretty good, and I did a lot of Voluntary work. I have had four interviews and just got a place at UCL. I'm the most successful (not bragging here, I'm just shocked) medical applicant at my college, in which there were 30 people applied and most so far have been rejected or are still waiting for decisions. Nobody got into a BMAT uni except me. If they didn't look at my entire form, however, I'd have been screwed. Think of that what you will, but they DO have the ability to at least skim through the rest of the applications rather than just sieving people out. imperial missed out.
    ... on me

    *cries*
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    (Original post by Baki)
    Or atleast review the more exceptional candidates (ie. ones with 90+ % in AS etc..)

    That shouldn't too time consuming, because applicants with those kind of grades are far and few between.
    Fair call, though we then run into the issue (as raised by Jesssay) that not every 'exceptional' candidate will be easilly identified by such markers. How does one decide wether a chap with 90%+ at AS is more exceptional than Jesssay with her troubles covered in her references. (bearing in mind she probably won't have this covered elsewhere if she has scraped minimum requirements).


    This still doesn't cover why the medical schools should aspire to this.

    According to Jesssay Imperial "missed out". Without wishing to be rude I do wonder in what way or shape they missed out. Afterall, they get a year group full of people I have no doubt are more than capable for the course.
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    (Original post by ADREAM)
    ... on me

    *cries*
    :console: Do you have anywhere else? If not, then take a gap year and have a ball! You'll love it I'm sure, then they'll be kicking themselves next year when they see who they missed out on!
 
 
 
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