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History Lost in Physics
My family are from all over - my dad's parents are welsh. My grandfather (dad's dad) played for wales and bridgend (well he played a match for wales at any rate). There's also some connection through the same grandfather to the James family (as in national anthem writing ones) - though not sure if James James was a direct ancestor or an inlaw or what - was told when I was litte so have forgotten much of it!

In fact - only one grandparents is brizzle/somerset and she had a black ancestor in there anyhow :biggrin:


How impressive! Sounds like an interesting family :biggrin:
Reply 61
Isambard Kingdom Brunel
I guess I am 'working class', seeing as my parents are a mechanic and a receptionist. But I have never understood how the class system works...why do I have to be 'working class' just because my parents are?

And what does 'working class' mean exactly? I define it by the kind of occupation you have, but like I said, I don't really understand it at all...

If you have a degree, are you still working class? :confused:



Go to some of the pubs around uxbridge on a friday night. most likely youll find your answer there. (most probably, fortunately ive never been but as a betting man i believe the chances are high)

LOLL
Reply 62
jismith1989
Well, what if I were to say to you that I find having more bedrooms than are in fact necessary both ostentatious and tasteless? I might dislike tweed, and living in the 18th century may equally seem just as, if not more, objectionable. :p:


Ah the 18th and 19th century.. times were good for my family back then.. before the wall street crash (and the abolition of slavery!) - those were times of milk and honey (or should I say margerine and coffee - ah.. the plantations .. :biggrin: )... One can only reminisce... :p:

(I am only joking before someone really flames me LOL)
lucho22
Nope.. Primrose Hill.. they're a far worse bunch of nouveau riche - tv personalities and such like.. grr..


Be thankful - my dad went to school with deal or no deal man, and the b*st*rd now lives down the s*dding road!

Have to say - I haven';t experiences the full force of this place, but I expect that it's pretty bad and shall have to visit to have a look.
lucho22
Ah the 18th and 19th century.. times were good for my family back then.. before the wall street crash (and the abolition of slavery!) - those were times of milk and honey (or should I say margerine and coffee - ah.. the plantations .. :biggrin: )... One can only reminisce... :p:

(I am only joking before someone really flames me LOL)

Whilst my family was most probably working in the fields. :cool:
Mrgd291190
How impressive! Sounds like an interesting family :biggrin:


The sad thing is that all the interesting ones died... Now only the boring useless ones (such as myself) are left. Actually I don't know that - I am in such poor contact with my dad that I have no idea which members of my welsh family are still alive and don't really care enough to get in contact!

To be fair though if any of your family are from anywhere near Bridgend of Pontypridd (or anywhere in the valleys to be honest) we're probably fairly closely related (bless our nations breeding habits :wink:)!
Reply 66
There are some interesting replies on the thread. I think what you must ask is how you wish to answer the question? If we are talking purely on a personal perception level then most of the replies give an answer of what the average lay-person understands "class" to be.

If we are talking about technical understandings of class then it is probably best to look towards Sociological work and studies carried out on social mobility.

What you tend to find when looking at these studies is that money and jobs can lead to prestige but the Sociologists will also use other yardsticks in which to judge a persons class. Of course this class is not just split into working, middle and upper.

As stated above Sociologists do not just assess income as a form of mobility as it can only be considered as only one dimension to class. J. H. Goldthorpe (1935) devised a schema to divide and show difference in class. It is divided into seven categories which are listed below:

Higher professionals, higher grade administrators, managers in large industrial concerns and large proprietors.

Lower professionals, higher grade technicians, lower grade administrators, managers in small businesses and supervisors of non-manual employees.

Routine non-manual, mainly clerical and sales personnel.

Small proprietors and self-employed artisans.

Lower grade technicians and supervisors of manual workers.

Skilled manual workers.

Semi - skilled and unskilled manual workers.

Using this system studies have attempted to show the shift in peoples standing within the class system. What you will tend to find is that people largely stay within the class in which they were born. They may move within a few categories which is known as short range mobility. There are of course people who make large jumps within the system and this is known as long-range mobility.

More importantly there is mobility between generations i.e. father and son. This is known as Intergenerational mobility and the area most studied by Sociologists.

What does this show though? In simple terms some studies show we have mobility and therefore can "change our class". However the mobility observed tends to be short-range and very little movement occurs between class 7 and 1 for instance.

Of course there are many studies and for every study that supports the Functionalist view of mobility based on merit there are equally as many if not more Marxist studies showing little mobility with the real power restricted to those at the top and not offered to anyone else.

If I was to give an honest answer of what it means to be working class I could not give it, hence my ramblings above! I believe the lines nowadays are so blurred it is difficult to pass judgment hence the different yardsticks used by Sociologists to define classes. Once study goes as far as to ask the sample how many holidays they have a year and do they have colour T.V !

You could have someone who earns good money and lives a 'clean life" and still classed as working class by you, I, or even a Sociologist. Whilst a person in the same street on benefits and no desire to participate in society etc deemed working class also.

I guess the burning question is not how do we assess it, or even what constitutes it but rather, does it matter in the modern world?

I would suggest that in the majority of everyday occurrences and instances it does not. However and it is a very big however, it CAN matter and tends to be where positions of power within society occur.
Reply 67
The concept of class was invented when people of similar levels income also had similar lifestyles and could thus be stereotyped. However although there are still rich and poor people, everyone's so different that these stereotypes no longer apply.
Reply 68
In any case, whatever it is, its in people's heads, which imo makes it BS.
Reply 69
nnnnl
In any case, whatever it is, its in people's heads, which imo makes it BS.


Oh of all the things that simply reside in people's heads - class is hardly the most BS... religion anyone?
Reply 70
Well some claim to have seen (or even felt!) the proof for religion. Anyway fearing God keeps a lot of people in line.
To be working class means to stay working class
To be working class means to stay working class
Reply 73
Class might only "exist" in peoples heads yet it has a tangible impact upon society and individuals which can be measured in some form. Can the same be said for religion?

I don't think so.

Yes it can be a social force causing change for good or bad in the case of the Iraq war for instance. It cannot however be classed as something that actually exists if we are talking about what is discussed in religious texts. In that sense it really does just exist in peoples heads as a belief. The fact it becomes a social factor or force is an individuals conscious desire to act upon belief.

Class however can be observed, measured (to a certain degree) and is not something we have to consciously make an effort to maintain. Yes it can be argued that those in a certain position in society or class make an effort to maintain that position or preclude it from others.

We have a class system in one form or another.
Bavarian Motor Works
Nowadays its

Low class - chavs etc
Lower middle - cashiers etc
Upper middle - smal business owners etc
upper - large assest owners rarely work etc
Knights barons sirs all that stuff at the top.


Joking right ?

I presume you are because that's nice and short and comic... only i'm slightly worried that you genuinely think cashier is a professional job... :s-smilie:
Reply 75
nnnnl
1. Well some claim to have seen (or even felt!) the proof for religion. 2. Anyway fearing God keeps a lot of people in line.


1. Yes - they assert this. There is however no evidence for the existence of a higher power, as well as a lot of contradictory evidence which makes 'God' (at least in the abrahamic sense) very unlikely indeed. So it may as well be in their heads.
2. Yes... the pesky working class to start with.. :p:
Reply 76
lucho22
1. Yes - they assert this. There is however no evidence for the existence of a higher power, as well as a lot of contradictory evidence which makes 'God' (at least in the abrahamic sense) very unlikely indeed. So it may as well be in their heads.
2. Yes... the pesky working class to start with.. :p:


Point No. 2. How very Marxist :wink: You mean we have religion to quell the aguish of being working class. :p:
History Lost in Physics
Joking right ?

I presume you are because that's nice and short and comic... only i'm slightly worried that you genuinely think cashier is a professional job... :s-smilie:


Lower middle class are wage workers....

low class = benefit claims etc etc.

low middle - cleaners, cashiers etc etc
upper middle - generally on salaries .
Reply 78
Hopefull
Point No. 2. How very Marxist :wink: You mean we have religion to quell the aguish of being working class. :p:


I was just making it relevant and showing the comment to be both patronising and ridiculous.. Marxism is generally just as bad as religion in what it creates in the fundamentalist follower or impressionable disciple. It's an interesting academic concept, but in the wrong hands is a dangerous ideology - sometimes even as dangerous as religion - so I wouldn't want you to get the wrong idea about that comment!! :wink:
Reply 79
Hopefull
Point No. 2. How very Marxist :wink: You mean we have religion to quell the aguish of being working class. :p:

If it stops you from selling your babies, quell away.

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