Horlskew
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Who is good at mathematics between Engineering & mathematics students
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mnot
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(Original post by Horlskew)
Who is good at mathematics between Engineering & mathematics students
Both are good at mathematics.

The mathematician will be better at mathematics and utilising a wide array of mathematical tools.

The engineer probably very strong in a more refined set of mathematical tools, but a better problem solver and more used to solving a diverse array of problems.
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Muttley79
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(Original post by mnot)
The engineer probably very strong in a more refined set of mathematical tools, but a better problem solver and more used to solving a diverse array of problems.
I dispute that an engineer is a better problem solver! Mathematics IS problem solving - more diverse is unlikely too. In the old modular A level I taught all the modules at some point - pure, decision, mechanics and stats. My Mathematics degree included fluid dynamics, OR, quantum mechanics, relativity as well as loads of stats and 'pure'.
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mnot
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(Original post by Muttley79)
I dispute that an engineer is a better problem solver! Mathematics IS problem solving - more diverse is unlikely too. In the old modular A level I taught all the modules at some point - pure, decision, mechanics and stats. My Mathematics degree included fluid dynamics, OR, quantum mechanics, relativity as well as loads of stats and 'pure'.
I think the mathematician is probably better at addressing analytical elements of problem solving. But on addressing a technical issue from identifying the problem to delivering a solution id take the engineer.

Im sure a mathematician can eloquently describe the turbulence models in fluid dynamics but the engineer can do the CFD and the technical implementation beyond the mathematics.
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Muttley79
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(Original post by mnot)
I think the mathematician is probably better at addressing analytical elements of problem solving. But on addressing a technical issue from identifying the problem to delivering a solution id take the engineer.

Im sure a mathematician can eloquently describe the turbulence models in fluid dynamics but the engineer can do the CFD and the technical implementation beyond the mathematics.
I can use and apply CFD .. there's no a standard mathematician just as all Engineers aren't the same
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by Muttley79)
I dispute that an engineer is a better problem solver! Mathematics IS problem solving - more diverse is unlikely too. In the old modular A level I taught all the modules at some point - pure, decision, mechanics and stats. My Mathematics degree included fluid dynamics, OR, quantum mechanics, relativity as well as loads of stats and 'pure'.
Today's engineers, either they are electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, chemical engineers, or whatever other type of engineers, lack quite a lot of knowledge in mathematics which is the key subject and the core of all sciences and engineering.

It is obvious that the mathematician will have better analytic skills and hence a better problem solver in general. However this is not always the case.

Speaking of mathematics, the level, here in our Universities is far lower than let's say the level in most European or Japanese & Chinese Universities.
Last edited by Lucifer323; 4 weeks ago
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by Muttley79)
I dispute that an engineer is a better problem solver! Mathematics IS problem solving - more diverse is unlikely too. In the old modular A level I taught all the modules at some point - pure, decision, mechanics and stats. My Mathematics degree included fluid dynamics, OR, quantum mechanics, relativity as well as loads of stats and 'pure'.
It is true that the old Syllabus was much more demanding and harder. People in the 70s and 80s have had a much training and prerequisites before going to University. Of course they had much better training while they were at Uni.
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Muttley79
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
Speaking of mathematics, the level of here in our Universities is far lower than let's say the level in most European or Japanese & Chinese Universities.
Evidence? Why do so many want to come to this country to study?

The Chinese education system does not focus on problem solving and innovative research.
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by Muttley79)
Evidence? Why do so many want to come to this country to study?

The Chinese education system does not focus on problem solving and innovative research.
I am from here by the way...

But I have been abroad and can see the differences. When I say abroad I mean Europe.

Have a look for example at the level of Mathematics the students are taught in Schools in France, Germany, Italy, Spain. You need to have a good look around.
Whatever we do here in our first or second year in a maths undergraduate course (not everything but a lot of material) is taught in their A-levels there.

Examples of A level courses in Europe:

Analysis
Geometry
Linear Algebra
Discrete Maths
Group Theory Logic

None of the above are taught here at A-Level. Some elements perhaps of algebra & geometry but not to the standards that we see in Europe .

Most UK Maths Undergraduate students would find it very difficult to survive in European Universities, simply because the A-Level system here is not preparing them the say way.

The knowledge someone can get in Oxford or Cambridge here, someone else can get for free or for very little cost at most European Universities.
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by Muttley79)
Evidence? Why do so many want to come to this country to study?

The Chinese education system does not focus on problem solving and innovative research.
You do understand our A-Level exams are by far easier in comparison with all other European Nations. That's not only in Maths but in every subject.
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Muttley79
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
You do understand our A-Level exams are by far easier in comparison with all other European Nations. That's not only in Maths but in every subject.
Don't lecture me thank you - you cannot compare standards without looking at the level needed to get top marks.

Yes, A level content was far greater in the 1970s and 1980s - the past papers are on the Emporium so it's well known. However the marks needed to get a top grade were very different. No-one I've ever taught has looked to do a degree in Europe Students from those countries have struggled at A level here ...
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JokesOnYoo
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(Original post by Horlskew)
Who is good at mathematics between Engineering & mathematics students
Mathematics is abstract in nature, if you are not a high abstract reasoner you will struggle hard with understanding deep Mathematics.
Engineering is mostly the application of Mathematics, it is the concrete application of abstract concepts
For application you often don't require deep knowledge of the abstract concepts other than similarity relationships
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JokesOnYoo
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(Original post by Muttley79)
Evidence? Why do so many want to come to this country to study?

The Chinese education system does not focus on problem solving and innovative research.
Thats wrong lol, look at all the international mathematics Olympiad team winner, they're all from China
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by Muttley79)
Don't lecture me thank you - you cannot compare standards without looking at the level needed to get top marks.

Yes, A level content was far greater in the 1970s and 1980s - the past papers are on the Emporium so it's well known. However the marks needed to get a top grade were very different. No-one I've ever taught has looked to do a degree in Europe Students from those countries have struggled at A level here ...
I think you are not aware of the level of Mathematics and Science of the European Students who are taught and examined in Europe. It is by far higher and the exams are by far harder. There is no debate aboit this. You can quickly look at some league tables on how the UK students do in maths & science in comparison with their European Counteparts.

The level of education in the UK is by far lower so to attract many others from all over the world and keep the business going in Universities.

There is a huge difference between European Students who were taught abroad and the ones here. However I don't see what evidence do you use to day that European students here in the UK system are struggling. They are usually the top students in both schools and universities. Likewise for Chinese students. Language maybe a barrier sometimes.
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by JokesOnYoo)
Thats wrong lol, look at all the international mathematics Olympiad team winner, they're all from China
Muttley doesn't understand at all that the level of Mathematics taught abroad is mucb higher than the level here. Europe, China, Japan, etc.

From my experience, Europeans, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, and others are the top students in both Schools and Universities.
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_gcx
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I'm not sure I understand the question.

The maths that maths students and engineering students are doing will be different. (in research it'd depend on their specialism)
(Original post by Lucifer323)
You do understand our A-Level exams are by far easier in comparison with all other European Nations. That's not only in Maths but in every subject.
Really? I remember looking at some French papers and it's not that much more advanced. In fact, I looked at an Irish scholarship exam taken by second year undergrads and it looked like something an able A-level student who had done some further reading could do.

Though I agree the A-level isn't a perfect preparation for a top maths degree (why STEP exists and why A-level maths/further maths is basically ignored over it at say Cambridge) but I think it fares relatively well compared to other countries.
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_gcx
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
Muttley doesn't understand at all that the level of Mathematics taught abroad is mucb higher than the level here. Europe, China, Japan, etc.

From my experience, Europeans, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, and others are the top students in both Schools and Universities.
Japan seems to only do calculus (to a more basic level than in the UK) in their final year of high school and their high school diploma is insufficient for entry at a UK university. (which is similar to the US)

I remember someone mentioning that calculus is a university level course (as it is in the US) in China too with an inordinate amount of time being spent on difficult geometry and algebra.
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ghostwalker
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I just stumbled across this on the 'net. Make of it what you will:

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JokesOnYoo
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But its also important to note, ideas of Mathematics is usually derived from reasoning applied to observation of physical phenomena. Understanding Mathematics is a step lower than creating Mathematics, being good at the former does not mutually include the latter because more qualitative skills are required for latter
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mnot
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(Original post by Muttley79)
I can use and apply CFD .. there's no a standard mathematician just as all Engineers aren't the same
Yes mathematicians can build & run excellent CFD code, but the focus on what the mathematician can do is different to that of the engineer (Ive taken masters mathematics CFD courses), and they are excellent but they focus on the underlying numerical models. The engineer will utilise the numerical models into a technical application.

Perhaps problem solving was the wrong way to describe it as it shorts mathematicians on analytical problem solving, but I think engineers are better at taking a problem in the world from diagnosis to delivered solution.
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