Sunak is trying to bankrupt an already bankrupt country!

Watch
PTMalewski
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#21
Report 3 weeks ago
#21
(Original post by ByEeek)
No. Because we have a well funded wealfare state and health system. Are you really telling me that if we reduced benefits to zero over night we would get by just fine?
Of course not overnight, it would cause serious economic distrubance, but if you give people money only because they're not doing well, you're going to have more people who choose not to do well, and take public money for free instead.

People should get state pensions only if they have done a fair share of work in their life already and they're going to retirement, they're temporarily or permanently unable to work, or they've lost job, and are looking for another, which might take a couple months, so given they worked before, they should should receive some help, but not longer than for couple of months, and no longer than the time they spent in their last job.

Otherwise they're going to be demoralised by social handouts. The only 'help' the state should provide them, is to maintain taxes reasonably low, so even unskilled people could get a job, get some skills, and earn good living through their own work.
0
reply
Quady
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#22
Report 3 weeks ago
#22
(Original post by PTMalewski)
Of course not overnight, it would cause serious economic distrubance, but if you give people money only because they're not doing well, you're going to have more people who choose not to do well, and take public money for free instead.

People should get state pensions only if they have done a fair share of work in their life already and they're going to retirement, they're temporarily or permanently unable to work, or they've lost job, and are looking for another, which might take a couple months, so given they worked before, they should should receive some help, but not longer than for couple of months, and no longer than the time they spent in their last job.

Otherwise they're going to be demoralised by social handouts. The only 'help' the state should provide them, is to maintain taxes reasonably low, so even unskilled people could get a job, get some skills, and earn good living through their own work.
Folk made redundant last month would be able to get a new job in the next month?

Surely the UK will be shedding jobs from now until at least November? No?
0
reply
Captain Haddock
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#23
Report 3 weeks ago
#23
(Original post by PTMalewski)
Of course not overnight, it would cause serious economic distrubance, but if you give people money only because they're not doing well, you're going to have more people who choose not to do well, and take public money for free instead.

People should get state pensions only if they have done a fair share of work in their life already and they're going to retirement, they're temporarily or permanently unable to work, or they've lost job, and are looking for another, which might take a couple months, so given they worked before, they should should receive some help, but not longer than for couple of months, and no longer than the time they spent in their last job.

Otherwise they're going to be demoralised by social handouts. The only 'help' the state should provide them, is to maintain taxes reasonably low, so even unskilled people could get a job, get some skills, and earn good living through their own work.
It honestly feels like I'm back in 2004 reading all this crap about BeNeFiT sCrOuNgErs in this thread. I thought we moved on from this already. Out-of-work benefits account for a tiny proportion of the welfare bill, and people who 'choose' to live on benefits account for a tiny proportion of that tiny proportion. The vast majority of benefits go to people who are already in work or are unable to work. You're talking about tearing down a system that helps millions of hard working people get by in life because a tiny handful of people are out there gaming the system. It's completely ridiculous to be talking about this.
1
reply
PTMalewski
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#24
Report 3 weeks ago
#24
(Original post by Quady)
Folk made redundant last month would be able to get a new job in the next month?
Or in six months, or maybe in eight?

(Original post by Quady)
Surely the UK will be shedding jobs from now until at least November? No?
Now there is a specific situation. Different situation needs different measures.

(Original post by Captain Haddock)
. You're talking about tearing down a system that helps millions of hard working people get by in life because a tiny handful of people are out there gaming the system. It's completely ridiculous to be talking about this.
You should be carefull about those millions, because you have only 66,6 in total.

Healthy, young and willing to work people don't need any help from the state, just as long as the state doesn't take too much of their money away.
If the need help, it's because the state takes away so much money from them, they effectively work 162 days a year, without getting money for it. That's your tax freedom day, you work about 162 days (2017 measure), only to have your money taken away.
And don't come up with 'we need taxes to fund hospitals and schools' argument.

In Switzerland, Australia, Estonia or New Zealand, people don't have so much of their income taken away in taxes, and there isn't any problem with beggars and orphants at streets.
0
reply
Captain Haddock
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#25
Report 3 weeks ago
#25
(Original post by PTMalewski)
Or in six months, or maybe in eight?


Now there is a specific situation. Different situation needs different measures.


You should be carefull about those millions, because you have only 66,6 in total.

Healthy, young and willing to work people don't need any help from the state, just as long as the state doesn't take too much of their money away.
If the need help, it's because the state takes away so much money from them, they effectively work 162 days a year, without getting money for it. That's your tax freedom day, you work about 162 days (2017 measure), only to have your money taken away.
And don't come up with 'we need taxes to fund hospitals and schools' argument.

In Switzerland, Australia, Estonia or New Zealand, people don't have so much of their income taken away in taxes, and there isn't any problem with beggars and orphants at streets.
What a load of nonsense. There are roughly 260 working days a year - are you trying to tell me the average person is taxed at 62% of their income? Pull the other one. Plus you're ignoring those on low incomes, who are in most in need of assistance and are taxed very little.

Why don't you want me mentioning those things? No answer?

Have you even been to these places you mention? Australia has similar tax rates to us, Auckland has an absolutely horrendous homelessness problem, and funnily enough my only experience with Switzerland is being approached by beggars outside Basel train station.
0
reply
PTMalewski
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#26
Report 3 weeks ago
#26
(Original post by Captain Haddock)
What a load of nonsense. There are roughly 260 working days a year - are you trying to tell me the average person is taxed at 62% of their income? Pull the other one. Plus you're ignoring those on low incomes, who are in most in need of assistance and are taxed very little.

Why don't you want me mentioning those things? No answer?

Have you even been to these places you mention? Australia has similar tax rates to us, Auckland has an absolutely horrendous homelessness problem, and funnily enough my only experience with Switzerland is being approached by beggars outside Basel train station.
1. Sorry, I trust Adam Smith institute more than a randome someone on the internet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day

2.If people are not willing to learn and work, it is entirely their fault if they're not doing well. Most of people work hard to avoid hardship, and they're succesful, and you're telling me, that money they earned should be taken away from them, and given to those who didn't bother to learn and work?
0
reply
Captain Haddock
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#27
Report 3 weeks ago
#27
(Original post by PTMalewski)
1. Sorry, I trust Adam Smith institute more than a randome someone on the internet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day

2.If people are not willing to learn and work, it is entirely their fault if they're not doing well. Most of people work hard to avoid hardship, and they're succesful, and you're telling me, that money they earned should be taken away from them, and given to those who didn't bother to learn and work?
You don't need to trust me, you just need to trust the basic ****ing maths I put in front of you.

I'm not fooling for this. You've circled back round to talking about the non-worker bogeyman despite having already been shown that this is an insignificant issue. We were actually talking about people who are already in work, but still need assistance
0
reply
Quady
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#28
Report 3 weeks ago
#28
(Original post by PTMalewski)
Or in six months, or maybe in eight?


Now there is a specific situation. Different situation needs different measures.
So why say a couple of months?
0
reply
Quady
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#29
Report 3 weeks ago
#29
(Original post by Captain Haddock)
What a load of nonsense. There are roughly 260 working days a year - are you trying to tell me the average person is taxed at 62% of their income?
I didn't realise one is only taxed on working days. At the weekends I don't need to pay VAT? I think the Adam Smith Institute missed that memo too - best let them know its not as early as May afterall.

Roughly speaking, yes. Based on a mean average rather than the median.

Median would be a more representative average though....
Last edited by Quady; 3 weeks ago
0
reply
Quady
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#30
Report 3 weeks ago
#30
(Original post by PTMalewski)
Healthy, young and willing to work people don't need any help from the state, just as long as the state doesn't take too much of their money away.
If the need help, it's because the state takes away so much money from them, they effectively work 162 days a year, without getting money for it. That's your tax freedom day, you work about 162 days (2017 measure), only to have your money taken away.
And don't come up with 'we need taxes to fund hospitals and schools' argument.

In Switzerland, Australia, Estonia or New Zealand, people don't have so much of their income taken away in taxes, and there isn't any problem with beggars and orphants at streets.
You really saying young people pay as much tax as those in their 40s and 50s.....?

Tax freedom day isn't age adjusted. Your own source states:
'First, there’s no average person. Because we don’t have a proportional tax system, every individual will have a different tax freedom day. In theory, Tax Freedom Day will come later for high-earners and earlier for low-earners'
https://www.adamsmith.org/taxfreedomday

In other news....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...e_to_GDP_ratio

UK 34.4%
New Zealand 34.5%
0
reply
Captain Haddock
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#31
Report 3 weeks ago
#31
(Original post by Quady)
I didn't realise one is only taxed on working days. At the weekends I don't need to pay VAT? I think the Adam Smith Institute missed that memo too - best let them know its not as early as May afterall.

Roughly speaking, yes. Based on a mean average rather than the median.

Median would be a more representative average though....
Nah, they did take that into account and came up with a figure of 44%. Then another source says 34%, so who knows? What they don't say is you have to work 164 days, which was PT's misinterpretation.
0
reply
Wōden
Badges: 15
Rep:
?
#32
Report 3 weeks ago
#32
(Original post by monkeybest)
Exactly why is everyone ignoring that fact. Why do we have 3 million Eastern Europeans working here doing unskilled jobs that lazy idle British scallywags could easily do but welfare pays them more to do f all instead? In fact the welfare gang boast on social media, tiktok etc how they are better off not working. When they pitch up to a foodbank texting their mates with a new iPhone 11 in one hand and cigarette or vape in the other you wonder what their priorities?
Scrap welfare give these toerags a choice of heres a job either do it or your lookout, no freebies and no running to get a sicknote saying too depressed to work either thats been a tired excuse for too long also.

Why have Iceland and Tesco Express had to put notices near the till saying School meal vouchers are not for alcohol? Clearly a sign that welfare is far too generous and the gravy train needs to end now.
That is not an issue of laziness on the British' part, it's an issue of wages. Many of those jobs, particular in the fruit and veg growing sector pay well under the minimum wage, we're talking like 2 - 4 pounds per hour in many cases. A decent enough wage for an Eastern Euopean seasonal worker, they can live quite comfortably on that in Bulgaria or Romania, but in no way shape or form would it be a liveable wage within the UK. That's why Brits don't do these jobs, in fact I'm fairly sure it's completely illegal for an employer to hire British citizens for such low pay anyway.

Fun fact while we are on the subject, in many Eastern European countries they have the same problem finding people to do their low skilled jobs too. Much of their working class populace would rather go to the much better paid jobs in Western and Northern Europe every summer, but quite understably have no interest doing the same work in the own country for less pay, which leaves huge gaps in the labour market. Thus many Eastern Europeans countries are now having to bus in workers from even further afield from places like Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan, India etc, which is no doubt draining those countries of their labour force too. It's a never ending viscious cycle and it's bourne not out of laziness but out of the general greed of big capital that wants to exploit as much as they can out of people whilst giving them as little as possible.
0
reply
PTMalewski
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#33
Report 3 weeks ago
#33
(Original post by Captain Haddock)
We were actually talking about people who are already in work, but still need assistance
Fair enough, although the idea still has some serious disadvantages, like damaging people's motivation to learn and work harder, or in case of progressive income taxes, it makes people hide their incomes or deliberately taking lower salaries not to fall into the higher tax rates.

(Original post by Wōden)
Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan, India etc, which is no doubt draining those countries of their labour force too. It's a never ending viscious cycle and it's bourne not out of laziness but out of the general greed of big capital that wants to exploit as much as they can out of people whilst giving them as little as possible.
These countries have excessive reproduction rates, and huge unemployment as a result. Taking workforce from there isn't draining anything, as the amount is impossible to drain. The bigger problem is that workers from these countries don't adapt to the local conditions as easily as Ukrainians and Russians or as Vietnamese.
0
reply
Captain Haddock
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#34
Report 3 weeks ago
#34
(Original post by PTMalewski)
Fair enough, although the idea still has some serious disadvantages, like damaging people's motivation to learn and work harder, or in case of progressive income taxes, it makes people hide their incomes or deliberately taking lower salaries not to fall into the higher tax rates.



These countries have excessive reproduction rates, and huge unemployment as a result. Taking workforce from there isn't draining anything, as the amount is impossible to drain. The bigger problem is that workers from these countries don't adapt to the local conditions as easily as Ukrainians and Russians or as Vietnamese.
You will never make less money by moving into a higher tax bracket. That's not how progressive taxes work.
0
reply
PTMalewski
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#35
Report 3 weeks ago
#35
(Original post by Captain Haddock)
You will never make less money by moving into a higher tax bracket. That's not how progressive taxes work.
You would be surprised how they work in some countries.
1
reply
Captain Haddock
Badges: 18
Rep:
?
#36
Report 3 weeks ago
#36
(Original post by PTMalewski)
You would be surprised how they work in some countries.
Which ones?
0
reply
imlikeahermit
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#37
Report 3 weeks ago
#37
(Original post by Quady)
Folk made redundant last month would be able to get a new job in the next month?

Surely the UK will be shedding jobs from now until at least November? No?
When Brexit gets done you can expect plenty more as well! Rishi won't be able to keep the coffers afloat with all of the benefits being given out to Brexit voters who've lost their jobs!
0
reply
Quady
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#38
Report 3 weeks ago
#38
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
When Brexit gets done you can expect plenty more as well! Rishi won't be able to keep the coffers afloat with all of the benefits being given out to Brexit voters who've lost their jobs!
Surely not that much more given worst case remoaner projections of a no deal were a mere 3% drop of gdp from peak?

https://www.theguardian.com/business...=1595268013286
1
reply
imlikeahermit
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#39
Report 3 weeks ago
#39
(Original post by Quady)
Surely not that much more given worst case remoaner projections of a no deal were a mere 3% drop of gdp from peak?

https://www.theguardian.com/business...=1595268013286
I suppose 3% is a drop in the ocean at the moment.
0
reply
monkeybest
Badges: 7
Rep:
?
#40
Report Thread starter 3 weeks ago
#40
(Original post by PTMalewski)
You would be surprised how they work in some countries.
Refreshing to have some normal views in there rather than the liberal lefties who think handouts grow on trees rather than planted by fools that work!

There should be more of an incentive to work than pride alone in this country but thats all it is. You have a benefit cap that is more than most jobs pay pre-tax that is how lucrative the benefits buffet is.

There are so many exceptions to the cap it may aswell not exist. Have a bit of depression, add a bit of fibromyalgia or other bs conditions as my GP friend says they are plus back pain and you have a very handy tax free sum no job can match! Only fools work in this country but even bigger fools save in this country when the benefits buffet offers a much cake that is tax free and limitless.

The taxpayers alliance said a few months ago that if welfare was canned you could eliminate a lot of income tax altogether. Its simple cut welfare raise wages cut income tax. Give the incentive to work not bludge off others.

Its like there is a welfare manual handed down through the generations that teaches you how to claim from the day you leave school to the day you die. Why accumulate thousands in debt from Uni and mortgage when you can simply get a rent free house from leaving school then when you want a bigger house bang a couple of mini chavs out and boom a bigger house is given to you on a plate again rent free!

My GP friend says around half the people that visit are part of the welfare gang and they essentially are trying to use him to get even more welfare, bigger houses more free cash etc etc

It is quite shocking why do we have 3 million Eastern Europeans working here when we have even more lazy shyster Brits parked on welfare for decades? Why do we have the welfare gang living in rent free properties in central london e.g that are worth hundreds of thousands sometimes millions that someone who works could never afford?

If want proof what the welfare gang get up to look at app tiktok its basically full of them boasting about doing nothing while smoking their life away bingewatching netflix. Soon they will demand free gas, electric etc etc Their whole life is funded by others they think they shouldnt have to pay for these things when fools that work should pick up the tab!
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

How do you feel about your grades? Are they...

What I expected (36)
24.49%
Better than expected (33)
22.45%
Worse than expected (78)
53.06%

Watched Threads

View All