Very rich people call for higher taxes - on themselves

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Burton Bridge
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Eh, that was pretty simple at the time of the referendum - Brexit with a tory government would mean a far right sell out compromising on everything from food standards (got to get that hormone laced beef from the US) to civil rights (talk of replacing the ECHR with our own "British bill of rights"). Given the EUs lack of any response to Hungary attacking womens rights and LGBT rights, and people like Ursula Von Der Leyen congratulating Duda on his reelection despite the whole LGBT-Free zones he and his supporters have been promoting, that latter argument has been somewhat blown out of the water since then.
That's BS, that's a silly argument. That assumes we are going to have Tory governments with far right sell out policies from brexit date to the end of time, which is nonsense. And to call this tory government far right is nothing shy of complete delusion, are you aware of the crime and punishment scheme we as a country are about to adopt (or may have already adopted) in Birmingham, Manchester and other cities across the north? The furlough scheme? Far right - honestly *shakes head* it's not even imlikeahermit right ,never mind far right.

And on your second point many things a true socialist government would wish to do are literally outlawed by the EU. Why do you younger guys almost solely see left wing threw the prism of LGBT and indenity politics?
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 3 weeks ago
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Stiff Little Fingers
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#62
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#62
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
That's BS, that's a silly argument. That assumes we are going to have Tory governments with far right sell out policies from brexit date to the end of time, which is nonsense. And to call this tory government far right is nothing shy of complete delusion, are you aware of the crime and punishment scheme we as a country are about to adopt (or may have already adopted) in Birmingham, Manchester and other cities across the north? The furlough scheme? Far right - honestly *shakes head* it's not even imlikeahermit right ,never mind far right.

And on your second point many things a true socialist government would wish to do are literally outlawed by the EU. Why do you younger guys almost solely see left wing threw the prism of LGBT and indenity politics?
Have you seen this country? The tories are still polling in the mid-40s after 65,000 excess deaths as a result of their catastrophic handling of Covid. We are likely to have a right wing government for a long time, and exiting with a right wing government in seat allows them to set the narrative and terms of our departure. It's still very clear that lexit isn't happening.

Let's be clear, the push away from austerity and to things like furlough is because Corbyn did win the argument and genuinely changed the prism we view politics through, even though the labour right deliberately sabotaged him in an attempt to stop it. The tories have noticed that and adapted slightly, it is not the same as Osbornes party economically.

Because we're not tankies? Class reductionism has always been a pile of crap that ignores how marginalised identities interact with capitalism to further marginalise them. Any socialism that does not advocate for racial equality, for gender equality, for LGBT rights, for disability equality, will always fail to achieve anything of value. The working class is not 50 year old white men wanting the racism dial turned to 11 and any pretence otherwise does not actually benefit those most harmed by the current economic system.
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Burton Bridge
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#63
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Have you seen this country? The tories are still polling in the mid-40s after 65,000 excess deaths as a result of their catastrophic handling of Covid. We are likely to have a right wing government for a long time, and exiting with a right wing government in seat allows them to set the narrative and terms of our departure. It's still very clear that lexit isn't happening.

Let's be clear, the push away from austerity and to things like furlough is because Corbyn did win the argument and genuinely changed the prism we view politics through, even though the labour right deliberately sabotaged him in an attempt to stop it. The tories have noticed that and adapted slightly, it is not the same as Osbornes party economically.

Because we're not tankies? Class reductionism has always been a pile of crap that ignores how marginalised identities interact with capitalism to further marginalise them. Any socialism that does not advocate for racial equality, for gender equality, for LGBT rights, for disability equality, will always fail to achieve anything of value. The working class is not 50 year old white men wanting the racism dial turned to 11 and any pretence otherwise does not actually benefit those most harmed by the current economic system.
Wow just wow so much horse dropping to tackle, I'll be back on that what I get a spare 20 minutes.
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imlikeahermit
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
No that's not true at all, socialists have traditionally been against the right wing ideals of the European union. Its harlious to me watching pseudo socialists basically arguing for trickle down economics. The EU is as neoliberal as anything you could imagine.

Also it's not true I wish to narrow the gap between the richest and poorest, what I wish to do has to eliminate the extreme poverty and inequality. Im happy with the successful fortunate being super rich, what I'm not happy with is the fact this is achieved as the suffering and expense of the poorest.

The BS that membership if the EU is left wing is laughable, I get totally why right wing people wish to join the EU, I get it. I get why centrist wish to join the EU however I stuggle to understand why any genuine traditional socialist wishes to sign up to a right leaning political union which prevents many of our core beliefs. BTW the EU membership is vast if you cannot grasp simple differences in opinion, you are dont have a chance with complex issues like EU membership.
You can't have your cake and eat it. How exactly are we solve the, and I quote 'suffering and expense of the poorest?' Given that the only option you seem to have is to throw money at them, most likely taken from the mega rich, one cannot blame these mega rich from using offshore accounts, which they are perfectly entitled to do.
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Brilliance, lose the debate and throw insults.

Anything on what I actually said above in the on topic discussion, you know the one which made you use all your debating skills and post a neme?
'Lose the debate and throw insults.'

Exhibit A - "I'm also sure you dont hold the cognitive abilities to understand what it is I'm saying, either that or your bigotry prevents you from seeing what I'm saying." - Burton Bridge.

I just like winding you up now, to be fair. It's like arguing with a toddler, you're never going to listen, nor are you going to provide any actual substance. You'll just keep spouting your happy clappy crap, and that's fine.
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
And prodvideing no evidence to back up their bigotry, #shocker
No evidence of what? How damaging Brexit will be to this country economically? I didn't think I'd need to provide any specific evidence given that there are a choice of about 15 or so economic reports showing this. However, just for the crack...


"There can be no doubt any more: Brexit will make us poorer" - The Guardian

"So what’s the bottom line? Looking at their realistic scenario rather than the Chequers fantasy, the cross-government analysis suggests that the Brexit deal would reduce UK GDP by between 2% and 4% (and that GDP per capita would fall by between 2% and 3%). Our report estimated a hit to GDP per capita of between 1.9% and 5.5%. Given the uncertainties involved, these results are reasonably consistent."

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rts-britain-eu
Three in one for you to cast your eyes over.
(Original post by DSilva)
If we want to increase opportunities for those at the bottom then of course we need to be investing substantially more on schools and other public services than we currently do.

Have you ever seen an inner city shool? When they have classes of 30+ that can't afford to stay open 5 days a week then it's no surprise that opportunities are limited.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...r-some-schools
That still does not change the fact that money is thrown at the poorest in our society. Perhaps, the allocation of that money could be better. For what it's worth, I completely agree that we need to be investing substantially more on schools.

Any chance you could answer the question regarding the poor being poorer as a result of Brexit, or are you happy to ignore that fact, like most Brexiteers?
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
That's BS, that's a silly argument. That assumes we are going to have Tory governments with far right sell out policies from brexit date to the end of time, which is nonsense. And to call this tory government far right is nothing shy of complete delusion, are you aware of the crime and punishment scheme we as a country are about to adopt (or may have already adopted) in Birmingham, Manchester and other cities across the north? The furlough scheme? Far right - honestly *shakes head* it's not even imlikeahermit right ,never mind far right.

And on your second point many things a true socialist government would wish to do are literally outlawed by the EU. Why do you younger guys almost solely see left wing threw the prism of LGBT and indenity politics?
Because certainly over the last few months the left has become the home of LGBT and identity politics. Given that we've seen the radical left hijack BLM and pedal their horrible rhetoric for the world to see, what else are most people supposed to think?
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Wow just wow so much horse dropping to tackle, I'll be back on that what I get a spare 20 minutes.
The sheer arrogance. Stiff Little Fingers I wouldn't bother. It's like arguing with a toddler.
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LiberOfLondon
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#65
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#65
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
No it isnt, is it? Currently we have poverty rising, people dying on the street from a lack of accommodation and opportunities disproportionately benefiting those from wealthier backgrounds.

This is all immoral
Given that the Home Secretary is a second-generation immigrant who's descended from Ugandan Asian refugees, I somehow doubt that.

Of course poverty's rising because we're in the middle of a recession.
(Original post by DSilva)
In the short term, I would follow the examples of other countries by not offering any state support (such as grants, reductions on VAT etc) to businesses who set up in tax havens.

I would also like there to be a high transactional tax, so profits are taxed where they are made, and not where the company is based.
The problem with 1) is you risk leaving the workers worse off.
Is 2) similar to McDonell's Robin Hood tax? I'm not sure a system where big companies are taxed both here and in, say, France benefits anyone but HMRC.
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Labour out here getting outflanked to the left by the ultra-rich :sigh:
Implying half the Labour apparatchiks aren't rich themselves.
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
It's a PR strategy and nothing more - much like the "philanthropists" who donate money to charity in order to save money compared to actually paying their tax, they want people to be praising them and not asking the difficult questions about who they exploited (be it workers, indigenous people or poor nations) to get that money in the first place.
How do you define ”exploited”?

There's a difference between Chinese-run slavery in East Turkestan (which most people would describe as exploitation) and paying someone to work of their own free will for minimum wage (not exploitation).
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Eh, that was pretty simple at the time of the referendum - Brexit with a tory government would mean a far right sell out compromising on everything from food standards (got to get that hormone laced beef from the US) to civil rights (talk of replacing the ECHR with our own "British bill of rights"). Given the EUs lack of any response to Hungary attacking womens rights and LGBT rights, and people like Ursula Von Der Leyen congratulating Duda on his reelection despite the whole LGBT-Free zones he and his supporters have been promoting, that latter argument has been somewhat blown out of the water since then.
What would you have against a British bill of rights?
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LiberOfLondon
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#66
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#66
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Let's be clear... Corbyn did win the argument and genuinely changed the prism we view politics through
Image
The Tories have 365 seats in Parliament. Labour have 203. This was the worst result for Labour since the 1930s.

Please, explain to me how you won the argument exactly?
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Burton Bridge
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#67
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#67
(Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
Have you seen this country? The tories are still polling in the mid-40s after 65,000 excess deaths as a result of their catastrophic handling of Covid.

So what?

We are likely to have a right wing government for a long time,

Not if we get our butt into gear and stop infighting, playing unpopular and highly damaging and dangerous identity politics and start listening to our voters. Our voters are still the same hard working salt of the earth people they was back in the 60's, they dont want charity they was respect and opportunity.

and exiting with a right wing governments in seat allows them to set the narrative and terms of our departure. It's still very clear that lexit isn't happening.

This lexit BS boils my urine, it really does! Its nonsense, in reality it's a derogatory term made up by remainers to belittle people. There is nothing left wing or right wing about leaving the EU, we either leave or stay, simple. Leaving the EU is about control, the Tories wont give the future I want but that's irrelevant to the point. I want the opportunity for a left wing government I want to elect in the future to operate with the freedoms it is given by the electorate, for example the ability to slash regressive taxes, for example.

Sorry you are just wrong if you think, left wingers should just except EU because we are s*** at winning elections! What a silly argument, it's like the we can change the EU from within and all that nonsense. It's just not true, little fact for you - Two out of every three parliaments in the European Union are classed as 'conservative' – there is no way to reform a movement that is dominated by right-wingers

Let's be clear, the push away from austerity and to things like furlough is because Corbyn did win the argument and genuinely changed the prism we view politics through, even though the labour right deliberately sabotaged him in an attempt to stop it. The tories have noticed that and adapted slightly, it is not the same as Osbornes party economically.

No its because the Tories are better at adapting to the political environment to win power, we effectively have new labour 2.0 in power, its centrist borrow and spend centrist unicorn politics thats dont work.

Because we're not tankies? Class reductionism has always been a pile of crap that ignores how marginalised identities interact with capitalism to further marginalise them.

What utter insulting nonsense! Poverty is the biggest killer in society, people dont care if they are blue green or yellow. In the real world people are concerned with not being taken advantage of of by wealthy employers, having enough money to get through the week, hoping their children dont end up falling into crime because of a lack of opportunities or living on the streets because they have fell through the welfare cracks because of certain clowns have not provided welfare for them because they are privileged, so blind..... grrr

Any socialism that does not advocate for racial equality, for gender equality, for LGBT rights, for disability equality, will always fail to achieve anything of value.

That's a strawmam, never said we shouldn't care about equality, we should not view the world threw the prism of indenity politics, it's not working.

The working class is not 50 year old white men wanting the racism dial turned to 11 and any pretence otherwise does not actually benefit those most harmed by the current economic system.

You prejudice and ignorance is off the chart, because you dont wish to talk about the facts you attack a persons skin colour and age.
Ok got abit of time now.

Answers in bold.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Image
The Tories have 365 seats in Parliament. Labour have 203. This was the worst result for Labour since the 1930s.

Please, explain to me how you won the argument exactly?
He won F all mate, never read such tripe in all my life.
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
He won F all mate, never read such tripe in all my life.
For once, I agree with you. This is also not a right wing government, like you said.
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
He won F all mate, never read such tripe in all my life.
Definitely.

Unfortunately the odds of me getting a response to my post are very slim given he prefers hiding in the fridge to debating and has a habit of being the sort of obnoxious student union member that makes all other socialists look like ****s.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Definitely.

Unfortunately the odds of me getting a response to my post are very slim given he prefers hiding in the fridge to debating and has a habit of being the sort of obnoxious student union member that makes all other socialists look like ****s.
There is nothing socialist about dividing and putting down fellow protectors of vulnerable people and making racist slurs against sections of society said person predefined to dislike.

That garbage in #62 was nothing shy of prejudice towards the end. Unfortunately people like this are the reason the tories are currently in power.

The main cause of opression is poverty, the reason for marginalisation is poverty, poverty causes inequality and the Tories cause more poverty by protecting the interests of the wealthy. So Stiff Little Fingers if you want anyone to wave your loathing little finger at, wave it at yourself! Indenty politics are very unpopular, the poor, women, black people etc. dont want to be victims, they want a fair crack at the whip.

While people like you divide the left and act holier than thou, the tories will continue to rape the country, making criminal justice worse, increasing poverty and inequality. Pat yourself on the back
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
There is nothing socialist about dividing and putting down fellow protectors of vulnerable people and making racist slurs against sections of society said person predefined to dislike.

That garbage in #62 was nothing shy of prejudice towards the end. Unfortunately people like this are the reason the tories are currently in power.

The main cause of opression is poverty, the reason for marginalisation is poverty, poverty causes inequality and the Tories cause more poverty by protecting the interests of the wealthy. So Stiff Little Fingers if you want anyone to wave your loathing little finger at, wave it at yourself! Indenty politics are very unpopular, the poor, women, black people etc. dont want to be victims, they want a fair crack at the whip.

While people like you divide the left and act holier than thou, the tories will continue to rape the country, making criminal justice worse, increasing poverty and inequality. Pat yourself on the back
Can I just ask, and this is all jokes aside, all past arguments aside...

If you care so much about reducing poverty, which is a worthwhile cause I may add, why do you so vehemently support a decision to leave, which will increase poverty, make the poor poorer and increase the gap further between the rich and the poor? I’m seriously intrigued.
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
There is nothing socialist about dividing and putting down fellow protectors of vulnerable people and making racist slurs against sections of society said person predefined to dislike.

That garbage in #62 was nothing shy of prejudice towards the end. Unfortunately people like this are the reason the tories are currently in power.

The main cause of opression is poverty, the reason for marginalisation is poverty, poverty causes inequality and the Tories cause more poverty by protecting the interests of the wealthy. So Stiff Little Fingers if you want anyone to wave your loathing little finger at, wave it at yourself! Indenty politics are very unpopular, the poor, women, black people etc. dont want to be victims, they want a fair crack at the whip.

While people like you divide the left and act holier than thou, the tories will continue to rape the country, making criminal justice worse, increasing poverty and inequality. Pat yourself on the back
As anyone who's seen my posts knows, I'm a Thatcherite and am by no means a socialist and even so, people who make socialists look like knobheads do my head in. During the Brexit campaign I was on the same side as socialists such as yourself and we had lots of common ground. Recently in the Model House of Commons I fought side by side with Cabin19, who's pretty damn left wing, on a motion to stop illegal immigration. Not all Tories are Hooray Henrys who go around beating up homeless guys and not all socialists are blue-haired misandrists who think Stalin did nothing wrong.

As for your points about poverty and oppression, poverty can sometimes be the cause of oppression (eg serfdom in medieval Europe) and oppression can sometimes be the cause of poverty (as in apartheid South Africa). It's ridiculous to always blame one on the other and to turn everything into ”this is the fault of the rich” or ”this is the fault of racism”.
Last edited by LiberOfLondon; 2 weeks ago
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Can I just ask, and this is all jokes aside, all past arguments aside...

If you care so much about reducing poverty, which is a worthwhile cause I may add, why do you so vehemently support a decision to leave, which will increase poverty, make the poor poorer and increase the gap further between the rich and the poor? I’m seriously intrigued.
Because it isnt the decision to leave per se that will make the poor poorer, it's the tories Tories policy that will make the poor poorer.

Leaving the EU is not left wing or right wing, membership of the EU isnt left wing in the slightest.
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Because it isnt the decision to leave per se that will make the poor poorer, it's the tories Tories policy that will make the poor poorer.

Leaving the EU is not left wing or right wing, membership of the EU isnt left wing in the slightest.
I would agree that leaving the EU is neither left nor right. It’s a decision based on probably different reasons for every person.

That being said, you mention Tory policies making the poor poorer. Are you suggesting that had Comrade Corbyn been elected then had we proceeded to leave then we wouldn’t see the 2-4% drop in GDP as expected, thus still making the poor poorer?
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
As anyone who's seen my posts knows, I'm a Thatcherite and am by no means a socialist and even so, people who make socialists look like knobheads do my head in. During the Brexit campaign I was on the same side as socialists such as yourself and we had lots of common ground. Recently in the Model House of Commons I fought side by side with Cabin19, who's pretty damn left wing, on a motion to stop illegal immigration. Not all Tories are Hooray Henrys who go around beating up homeless guys and not all socialists are blue-haired misandrists who think Stalin did nothing wrong.

As for your points about poverty and oppression, poverty can sometimes be the cause of oppression (eg serfdom in medieval Europe) and oppression can sometimes be the cause of poverty (as in apartheid South Africa). It's ridiculous to always blame one on the other and to turn everything into ”this is the fault of the rich” or ”this is the fault of racism”.
Oh absolutely, the right is an ideology. At heart most people want what's best for the country, the Tories may be the leading right wing party but they are not always right wing, if you get me? Politics isn't black and white there are shades of grey.

However at heart the Tories will always look after the interests of those who bank roll them, that's the wealthy. The top 5% wont pay them millions if they wasn't getting it back.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
I would agree that leaving the EU is neither left nor right. It’s a decision based on probably different reasons for every person.

That being said, you mention Tory policies making the poor poorer. Are you suggesting that had Comrade Corbyn been elected then had we proceeded to leave then we wouldn’t see the 2-4% drop in GDP as expected, thus still making the poor poorer?
I'm saying that if handled correctly our exit from the EU wouldn't harm the poorest of society.

You dont measure a country by its GDP or the amount of million or billionaires it has, you measure it by the care it gives the weak infirm and vulnerable and the opportunities normal people enjoy.
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DSilva
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
He won F all mate, never read such tripe in all my life.
No, but at least he put forward some genuinely left wing policies on the economy. Right now we are being outflanked by Risihi Sunak.
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LiberOfLondon
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(Original post by DSilva)
No, but at least he put forward some genuinely left wing policies on the economy. Right now we are being outflanked by Risihi Sunak.
Sunak's electoral strategy seems to be defeating Labour by becoming Labour.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by DSilva)
No, but at least he put forward some genuinely left wing policies on the economy. Right now we are being outflanked by Risihi Sunak.
This is true, but we aren't the party to suggest ideas for people to steal. That's what I was trying to get across to Wired_1800 months back, the main purpose of being in politics is to win, if you dont win you cant do anything. The Tories are good at compromising to win, they understand it's better to have a little bit of what you believe than non at all.
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