Will Labour ever be in power again?

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17summerellc
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#41
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#41
i believe that labour should sign an agreement with the SNP (coalition support for indi ref 2) we should make an agreement with the lib dems to not campaign in each others marginals and move to the centre. if the british left can moderate and unite there is a real chance in 2024. (p.s the lib dems would not be part of a coalition)
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Rakas21
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#42
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(Original post by 17summerellc)
i believe that labour should sign an agreement with the SNP (coalition support for indi ref 2) we should make an agreement with the lib dems to not campaign in each others marginals and move to the centre. if the british left can moderate and unite there is a real chance in 2024. (p.s the lib dems would not be part of a coalition)
Congratulations, you have just lost your remaining northern seats. There would be few greater gifts you could give to a Conservative campaign than telling every unionist in the country that you will sell them out for power.

We know that in analysis of 2015 it actually played quite well just bringing up the thought, never mind openly declaring support.

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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Congratulations, you have just lost your remaining northern seats. There would be few greater gifts you could give to a Conservative campaign than telling every unionist in the country that you will sell them out for power.

We know that in analysis of 2015 it actually played quite well just bringing up the thought, never mind openly declaring support.

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Not only that, but you’ve also then lost Scotland altogether. Any government which allows a indyref 2 is basically allowing the splitting of the union, because there is overwhelming support now for it in Scotland.

I would also assume that under those circumstances, the EU would jump at the chance to get Scotland back, to give us the middle finger.

Allowing indyref2 in any way shape or form is committing union euthanasia.
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
Since you had been the one to agree with another user's post, it's weird how you're asking me to clarify on what you had agreed with...?

Does the Labour party support the BLM organisation, specifically that which tweets out anti-Semitic things? From my understanding it only supports the BLM movement (or, by proxy, racial equality). Furthermore, what has this got to do with my original question? How is any of this a "middle finger" to straight white people?
I think Napp has answered this better than I ever could, so I could only echo what he had said.


However, I am perturbed by the following comment you made...

I never said anything about British society itself being racist, only it's colonial history.

Are you seriously calling our colonial history racist! You cannot judge the actions of the past on today’s standards. Absolute tosh.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Congratulations, you have just lost your remaining northern seats. There would be few greater gifts you could give to a Conservative campaign than telling every unionist in the country that you will sell them out for power.

We know that in analysis of 2015 it actually played quite well just bringing up the thought, never mind openly declaring support.

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This is simply incorrect. If you look at the seats lost by Labour in 2015, almost all of them were in Scotland. The seats lost by Labour in the north of England, such as Bolton West and Derby North, were lost because of the large UKIP vote.

Hell, Labour actually won a couple of seats in the North from the Conservatives, such as Dewsbury and Wirral West.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
I never said anything about British society itself being racist, only it's colonial history.

Are you seriously calling our colonial history racist! You cannot judge the actions of the past on today’s standards. Absolute tosh.
Except you can. Just because it happened in the past doesn't mean we can't use existing definitions or labels to define it.

Was the holocaust not racist simply because it happened in the past?
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L i b
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#47
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#47
(Original post by 17summerellc)
i believe that labour should sign an agreement with the SNP (coalition support for indi ref 2) we should make an agreement with the lib dems to not campaign in each others marginals and move to the centre. if the british left can moderate and unite there is a real chance in 2024. (p.s the lib dems would not be part of a coalition)
It's a funny idea of centrism to talk about uniting the British left, and to give support to separatist nationalists in parts of Britain.
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
Except you can. Just because it happened in the past doesn't mean we can't use existing definitions or labels to define it.

Was the holocaust not racist simply because it happened in the past?
The two are not comparable at all. Britain’s colonial past was common place in those times. The empire was built on common traditions of that time. It was not racist at the time what happened, despite being so now. Slavery was the norm. It does not excuse it, however it does not mean we should judge those actions now.

However, the Holocaust was wrong at the time, and is still wrong now. That is the vital difference.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
The two are not comparable at all. Britain’s colonial past was common place in those times. The empire was built on common traditions of that time. It was not racist at the time what happened, despite being so now. Slavery was the norm. It does not excuse it, however it does not mean we should judge those actions now.

However, the Holocaust was wrong at the time, and is still wrong now. That is the vital difference.
The holocaust was not uncommon, actually. Genocide has existed throughout history and genocides have happened thereafter, even in Europe.

Regardless, racism being commonplace does not stop it from being racism. Racism is simply not defined to apply only to uncommon believes / practices.
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
The holocaust was not uncommon, actually. Genocide has existed throughout history and genocides have happened thereafter, even in Europe.

Regardless, racism being commonplace does not stop it from being racism. Racism is simply not defined to apply only to uncommon believes / practices.
However, genocide has always been wrong, racism hasn’t.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
However, genocide has always been wrong, racism hasn’t.
To whom? The countries that have committed genocide throughout history have all considered their actions to be acceptable (at least at the time), just as racism was once considered acceptable.
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
To whom? The countries that have committed genocide throughout history have all considered their actions to be acceptable (at least at the time), just as racism was once considered acceptable.
The mass murder of innocent people has always been wrong. You’ve got to be joking, right?
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
The mass murder of innocent people has always been wrong. You’ve got to be joking, right?
I think you've misunderstood what I had said.

Genocide has always been wrong, however at certain points in history the people committing genocide believed their actions to be right; Nazi Germany considered the holocaust to be morally correct, as just one example.

Just because something was once considered acceptable in the past does not mean we cannot deem in unacceptable today, regardless of how common it was.
Last edited by SHallowvale; 4 weeks ago
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
I think you've misunderstood what I had said.

Genocide has always been wrong, however at certain points in history the people committing genocide believed their actions to be right; Nazi Germany considered the holocaust to be morally correct, as just one example.

Just because something was once considered acceptable in the past does not mean we cannot deem in unacceptable today, regardless of how common it was.
I think you’re missing the point. Genocide, for example under the nazi regime was only acceptable to those in the nazi party, or party sympathisers, not to the rest of the world.

Racism, on the other hand, was tolerated world wide. Slavery was the norm.

You are wrongly comparing apples and oranges.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
I think you’re missing the point. Genocide, for example under the nazi regime was only acceptable to those in the nazi party, or party sympathisers, not to the rest of the world.

Racism, on the other hand, was tolerated world wide. Slavery was the norm.

You are wrongly comparing apples and oranges.
None of which matters, since the normality of something does not stop it from being racist.

If tomorrow the world decided to bring back the African slave trade would that not be racist simply because it would be the norm?
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
None of which matters, since the normality of something does not stop it from being racist.

If tomorrow the world decided to bring back the African slave trade would that not be racist simply because it would be the norm?
That is not the point. The point here is that you, and all of the other left wing plonkers are intent on judging our past on today’s values, which is neither fair, nor just. By your logic, every building built by the slave trade must be torn down, which is about probably a quarter of Britain.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
That is not the point. The point here is that you, and all of the other left wing plonkers are intent on judging our past on today’s values, which is neither fair, nor just. By your logic, every building built by the slave trade must be torn down, which is about probably a quarter of Britain.
Except it is the point since you earlier had told me that we can not call our colonial history racist. That's the point I am addressing here.

Considering slavery to be wrong certainly isn't a modern idea. Also, I haven't said anything about tearing down buildings built by slaves, I don't know where you've got that from; I don't think we should, if you need that to be said.
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Iñigo de Loyola
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(Original post by Napp)
I have never exploited a black nor benefited from slavery and ill be damned if im giving these money grubbers a penny, especially when they have done/suffered nothing to deserve it.
Exactly. Doubly so given that my ancestors were mostly English and Irish working class people with some Finns in there as well. The one vaguely privileged ancestor I had was for abolishing slavery.
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