Coronavirus: Disproportionate number of BAME people fined

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Napp
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#41
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#41
(Original post by epicnm)
I’m failing to understand where you got ‘sneezing on people’. And Britain has its own issues with police brutality - it was only a couple of weeks ago where an office from the Met was leaning on a black man’s neck in the same manner that had been done with George Floyd.
And what about Sean Rigg who was killed? The UK, although not on the same scale as the US, definitley has issues with police brutality.
Its a tongue in cheek remark. In that diseased people spreading the virus at these riots.
There was nothing brutal about it. Either you havent seen this case or youre being dishonest to compare it to what happened to Floyd.
What about him sorry? I cant say im familiar enough with the case to offer much of a comment aside from a cursory overview of the case doesnt show that it is similar to Police killing people in america in any way.
One example doesnt really prove your point here.. briefly kneeling on an armed criminal to arrest him hardly being "undue brutality". Unless the dictionary has changed the definition lately?

If you are searching 9 black people and 1 white person when black people make up 3% of the population, you are doing one of two things:
You are actively going out of your way to search black people
You are actively going out of your way to ignore the criminal activity of white people.
Or you're in a black neighbourhood with a significant amount of criminals in it.
The fact of the matter being that just because more blacks are searched does not mean there is some racist conspiracy behind it. The truism of correlation not being causation applying completely. Take gang crime for example, is it "racist" to say blacks are the primary offenders? No it is a simple fact. One that leads directly to the stop and search issue.
You're effectively saying let criminals get away with crime because of their race, an, ironically, racist suggestion.
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epicnm
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#42
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(Original post by Napp)
Its a tongue in cheek remark. In that diseased people spreading the virus at these riots.
There was nothing brutal about it. Either you havent seen this case or youre being dishonest to compare it to what happened to Floyd.
What about him sorry? I cant say im familiar enough with the case to offer much of a comment aside from a cursory overview of the case doesnt show that it is similar to Police killing people in america in any way.
One example doesnt really prove your point here.. briefly kneeling on an armed criminal to arrest him hardly being "undue brutality". Unless the dictionary has changed the definition lately?


Or you're in a black neighbourhood with a significant amount of criminals in it.
The fact of the matter being that just because more blacks are searched does not mean there is some racist conspiracy behind it. The truism of correlation not being causation applying completely. Take gang crime for example, is it "racist" to say blacks are the primary offenders? No it is a simple fact. One that leads directly to the stop and search issue.
You're effectively saying let criminals get away with crime because of their race, an, ironically, racist suggestion.
I have seen the case and it is used the same ‘kneeling on the neck’ technique carried out by George Floyd’s murderers. That arrest technique was never taught to police officers because it can very easily be used to kill. Had there not been people videoing the situation and repeatedly telling the police officer to get off his neck, we may have ended up in a different situation. These incidents aren’t isolated, they’re just now being filmed.
You can find plenty more examples online:
https://twitter.com/mcash/status/126...805120000?s=21
https://twitter.com/skzluvb0t/status...046417920?s=21


So you are searching more black people because of higher crime rates, but this is not seen in white areas, despite white people leading crimes of weapon possession and drug possession. A black person is 40 times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people. There’s coincidentally running across more black people and then there is actively targeting black people and ignoring white people committing crime.
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DiddyDec
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#43
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#43
(Original post by mgi)
of course he did. And i already asked him. He doesn't answer because his prejudice is clear.
He doesn't answer because he is banned :lol:
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mgi
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#44
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#44
(Original post by DiddyDec)
He doesn't answer because he is banned :lol:
yea! finally.
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Napp
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#45
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(Original post by epicnm)
I have seen the case and it is used the same ‘kneeling on the neck’ technique carried out by George Floyd’s murderers. That arrest technique was never taught to police officers because it can very easily be used to kill. Had there not been people videoing the situation and repeatedly telling the police officer to get off his neck, we may have ended up in a different situation. These incidents aren’t isolated, they’re just now being filmed.
You can find plenty more examples online:
https://twitter.com/mcash/status/126...805120000?s=21
https://twitter.com/skzluvb0t/status...046417920?s=21
Theres a difference between the two, a couple of seconds and 9 minutes speaking for themselves... For example, it is perfectly acceptable to hit a suspect with a batton to make them comply yet there is a difference between a couple of strikes and beating them to a pulp. The hold itself is not in question but the manner in which it is being used.
I'm afraid i don't see an issue in the first... now i am absolutely no fan of the police but i respect the fact they have a tough job to do with suspects who dont comply, this video being them trying to get him to relax and submit, no?
The second one i agree it looks bad. I'd be weary of making any further comment without knowing the full story though. 7 odd seconds not being particularly illuminating.
So you are searching more black people because of higher crime rates, but this is not seen in white areas, despite white people leading crimes of weapon possession and drug possession. A black person is 40 times more likely to be stopped and searched than white people. There’s coincidentally running across more black people and then there is actively targeting black people and ignoring white people committing crime.
Not being an indepth expert on the subject, again, i would be weary of making comment. Suffice it to say the fact blacks lead in the crime statistics of robbery, gun possession, street crime et al. (in london at least) rather speaks for itself.
I'm curious as to how much specific areas distort the statistics for this though. There obviously going to be a whopping number of blacks searched in an area such as Barking ( as an example) vs. some wee country village and how this represents nationally.

Either way, on your last point, what exactly is your solution to this? To baselessly search more white people (which is what youve said, no?) or to simply search less blacks? There may well be an issue with stereotyping based on previous encounters (humans being the pattern engines that they are) but neither of these outcomes seems especially good.
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paul514
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#46
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(Original post by Townsend419)
Somehow this is proof of discrimination but it's actually not. We've seen nothing but mosques open, Islamic funerals with 100+ funerals (didn't some Labour MP attend?) but ignore all that..



Also throwing everyone who isn't White into one group is pretty stupid tbh who thought that was a good idea?
This
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epicnm
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#47
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#47
(Original post by Napp)
Theres a difference between the two, a couple of seconds and 9 minutes speaking for themselves... For example, it is perfectly acceptable to hit a suspect with a batton to make them comply yet there is a difference between a couple of strikes and beating them to a pulp. The hold itself is not in question but the manner in which it is being used.
I'm afraid i don't see an issue in the first... now i am absolutely no fan of the police but i respect the fact they have a tough job to do with suspects who dont comply, this video being them trying to get him to relax and submit, no?
The second one i agree it looks bad. I'd be weary of making any further comment without knowing the full story though. 7 odd seconds not being particularly illuminating.

Not being an indepth expert on the subject, again, i would be weary of making comment. Suffice it to say the fact blacks lead in the crime statistics of robbery, gun possession, street crime et al. (in london at least) rather speaks for itself.
I'm curious as to how much specific areas distort the statistics for this though. There obviously going to be a whopping number of blacks searched in an area such as Barking ( as an example) vs. some wee country village and how this represents nationally.

Either way, on your last point, what exactly is your solution to this? To baselessly search more white people (which is what youve said, no?) or to simply search less blacks? There may well be an issue with stereotyping based on previous encounters (humans being the pattern engines that they are) but neither of these outcomes seems especially good.
For the second video especially, I don’t think there’s any circumstance which could justify the manner in which that was carried out by police, given there were at least 5 officers there, with one repeatedly punching the man’s head, very easily causing the man to suffer severe head injuries.

I think the entire system of ‘stop and search’ is flawed and it was designed in a way that would unfairly target ethnic minorities, so I don’t agree with it. Also I would want clarification on what constituted ‘reasonable grounds’ because the only grounds that someone should be publicly stopped by police and frisked down is if the police had proper evidence that the person was carrying a weapon or something illegal, not the person fitting the vague description of “a black man in a hoodie”, which could as well mean searching 60% of black men in London.
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JWatch
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#48
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#48
(Original post by epicnm)
Black people make up 3.5% of the UK population, admittedly more in certain areas of the UK, with London having the highest black population of 13.3%, but for you to search 9 black individuals and 1 white individual, it suggests that skin colour is ‘reasonable grounds’ to search. I can tell you now that it is not only black people committing crimes, but they are 40 times more likely to be searched compared to white people. I know black men who work in the NHS and are being searched by police officers more than 3 times a week. All it does is increases a communities distrust in the police.
I think you have ignored the institutional racism in the police force itself, along with your own admitted racial bias.
It isn't. We don't search people based on their skin colour. The reason for the disproportionate statistics is that black people more likely to come to our attention and therefore we're more likely to have grounds to search them. This is what institutional racism refers to. Black people are often in a disadvantaged position, less wealth, and less prospects because society doesn't treat them equally. As a result, they're more likely to get involved in crime.

I don't have a racial bias and I find that suggestion very insulting. I search people when I have reasonable grounds to suspect they have something on them they shouldn't. I do that to keep you and the rest of the public safe. Should we not search people we think are carrying illegal things?
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JWatch
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#49
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#49
(Original post by epicnm)
If you are searching 9 black people and 1 white person when black people make up 3% of the population, you are doing one of two things:
You are actively going out of your way to search black people
You are actively going out of your way to ignore the criminal activity of white people.
Looking at it as a percentage of the population would only make sense if everyone in the population was committing crime. But that isn't the case. I've already explained that black people are more likely to be involved in crime because of institutional racism, and that in turn leads to them coming to our attention and being searched more than white people. We don't search people based on their skin colour, we only search them when we have reasonable grounds to. Are you saying we shouldn't be allowed to do that?
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Gundabad(good)
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#50
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#50
(Original post by mgi)
When are the police going to sort themselves out and treat BAME people fairly?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...wHQlxu&ampcf=1
I have no idea.
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The RAR
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#51
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#51
Want the police to be replaced with the SS?
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JWatch
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#52
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Stop and search shouldn't be about searching an exactly equal "proportion" of white and black, it should be about searching everyone we have grounds to search. That is what happens, nobody is searched or targeted based on their skin colour. The reason black people are disproportionately affected is that due to institutional racism, they are more likely to be involved in crime and thus more likely to end up getting searched.
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nathan_nacu
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#53
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(Original post by JWatch)
It isn't. We don't search people based on their skin colour. The reason for the disproportionate statistics is that black people more likely to come to our attention and therefore we're more likely to have grounds to search them. This is what institutional racism refers to. Black people are often in a disadvantaged position, less wealth, and less prospects because society doesn't treat them equally. As a result, they're more likely to get involved in crime.

I don't have a racial bias and I find that suggestion very insulting. I search people when I have reasonable grounds to suspect they have something on them they shouldn't. I do that to keep you and the rest of the public safe. Should we not search people we think are carrying illegal things?
What are these ‘reasonable grounds’ to suspect a black person just happens to have something they shouldn’t? How they’re dressed?
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nathan_nacu
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#54
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(Original post by JWatch)
Stop and search shouldn't be about searching an exactly equal "proportion" of white and black, it should be about searching everyone we have grounds to search. That is what happens, nobody is searched or targeted based on their skin colour. The reason black people are disproportionately affected is that due to institutional racism, they are more likely to be involved in crime and thus more likely to end up getting searched.
Untrue because even when u factor in the increased likelihood of being in a crime the stop and search numbers are *still* disproportionate
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JWatch
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(Original post by nathan_nacu)
Untrue because even when u factor in the increased likelihood of being in a crime the stop and search numbers are *still* disproportionate
We can only deal with what's in front of us. If we have grounds to search more black people than white people, then we search more black people than white people. What would you like us to do differently, do you want us not to search people even when we have grounds?

Imagine you saw someone carrying a knife and pointed him out to me, only for me to say "sorry mate can't search him, he's black and I've already searched 1 black person today, I need to wait until I've searched a white person for things to be equal". That would be absolutely insane and yet it appears to be what you're suggesting we do?
Last edited by JWatch; 1 week ago
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nathan_nacu
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#56
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(Original post by JWatch)
We can only deal with what's in front of us. If we have grounds to search more black people than white people, then we search more black people than white people. What would you like us to do differently, do you want us not to search people even when we have grounds?

Imagine you saw someone carrying a knife and pointed him out to me, only for me to say "sorry mate can't search him, he's black and I've already searched 1 black person today, I need to wait until I've searched a white person for things to be equal". That would be absolutely insane and yet it appears to be what you're suggesting we do?
Yh but this doesn’t answer my question. What are these reasonable grounds that happen to make u suspect more black people? I never said u shouldn’t search. I’m asking what these grounds that white ppl seem to be lacking are, is it the tracksuits?

I’m pretty sure u wouldn’t need to search someone visibly carrying a knife, u could just go straight to an arrest. Wouldn’t u only use a search on someone u *suspect* of carrying something Mr. Officer? Or am I missing something? Besides, I’m pretty sure the ppl who get stopped and searched don’t proudly brandish their illegal substances as u plainly made it seem.
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mgi
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#57
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#57
(Original post by JWatch)
It isn't. We don't search people based on their skin colour. The reason for the disproportionate statistics is that black people more likely to come to our attention and therefore we're more likely to have grounds to search them. This is what institutional racism refers to. Black people are often in a disadvantaged position, less wealth, and less prospects because society doesn't treat them equally. As a result, they're more likely to get involved in crime.

I don't have a racial bias and I find that suggestion very insulting. I search people when I have reasonable grounds to suspect they have something on them they shouldn't. I do that to keep you and the rest of the public safe. Should we not search people we think are carrying illegal things?
You may feel insulted, but i notice that you simply repeat yourself.
You did not address the issue that i raised in my previous post to you. I am not convinced by your reasoning regarding obvious racisl profiling of black people. It simply does not fit in with data and the way that white people are treated compared to black people.
You simply never address the reason why you think that law abiding black people should put up with being searched far more often than white people. That is the point! Deal with that specific point and ask a few black police officers whether they agree with your reasoning
Forget feeling insulted! Its a common feeling amongst the black community as well I suspect.
And for the avoidance of any doubt, no one sane is suggesting that a knife weilding maniac of whatever race should not be immediately arrested!
I am not sure you understand how seriously black people take racial profiling. If a lot of officers think like you then that distrust will continue!
Stay on the particular points i raise, sir, and try not to deviate with extreme examples.
Last edited by mgi; 1 week ago
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looloo2134
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(Original post by nathan_nacu)
Untrue because even when u factor in the increased likelihood of being in a crime the stop and search numbers are *still* disproportionate
Young white working class males are stop along with black lads all the time in my part of London when their walking around in hoodies. One 16 year old white lad was stop 3 times in one week the same as a black lad who live in the area. The white people in the area are mostly over 50 and people over 50 do not commit as much crime as people under 30.

In my sister area which on one of riches areas in the country the police have near stop any boys black/white because their almost no knife crime.
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Pinkisk
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(Original post by Dubsmash247)
Because White people aren't ones attending giant funerals, going to mosques etc...
Nah...Bournemouth beach during the lockdown:



Police response to this violation another like it across the country, which lasted weeks? nothing.
Last edited by Pinkisk; 1 week ago
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mgi
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#60
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#60
(Original post by looloo2134)
Young white working class males are stop along with black lads all the time in my part of London when their walking around in hoodies. One 16 year old white lad was stop 3 times in one week the same as a black lad who live in the area. The white people in the area are mostly over 50 and people over 50 do not commit as much crime as people under 30.

In my sister area which on one of riches areas in the country the police have near stop any boys black/white because their almost no knife crime.
No , these are just your anecdotal observations. Check out national published data. It is widely known and published that black people are far more likely to be stopped than white people in every area of the country!
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