Teaching as experience?

Hi all,

Is teaching still considered relevant experience when applying to an Educational Psychologist Doctorate? I know in the past it was a requirement to be one and now it's not... is this because they prefer more clinical-based experience?

How likely is it for someone to get accepted onto a DEdPsych with only teaching experience? (5 years?)

Also, out of interest, would teaching aid an application to a Clinical Psychology programme at all? I appreciate with this doctorate you would need additional clinical experience.

Reply 1

Emzemz

Original post by QuestioningPsych

Yes it is! You only need 1 year full time experience for the Educational Psychology doctorate (although experience teaching children with additional needs would be a bonus!).
For clinical psychology they prefer Assistant Psychologist experience. Working with children isn’t enough, but if you could explain that it was with SEN or SEMH children this may be enough to apply! You’re probably more likely to get a place on an Educational Psychologist Doctorate though.

Reply 2

username5359312

Original post by Emzemz

Hi Emzemz,

Thank you for your reply!!! It's one of those things that's been playing on my mind recently as I'm part-time studying towards a BSc (Hons) in Psychology alongside full-time teaching. For some reason I've been filled with a lot of self-doubt recently that this was the wrong thing to do/wouldn't aid my eventual application etc. I do teach children with SEN but I don't receive extra recognition for that (no additional payments/status etc.) so I wasn't sure if that is something that would have standing on an application.

I agree it would probably have higher standing for the DEdPsych than DClinPsy as it's child-centred experience. I'm so confused as to whether I'm more inclined to head down the Educational or Clinical route. Clinical elements such as trauma, disordered behaviours, addiction etc. are my main interests within the field but at the same time I do love working with children.

Thank you again - I'll take another look into AP experience and related areas like PWP etc. If an opportunity arises I might do a year in one of these roles ahead of my application to help strengthen it.

Reply 3

The Pale Dreamer

As an EP you would work with children with behavioural needs (so trauma, ASD, ADHD. self-harm etc.), although this is would likely be in the school rather than therapeutic context. This would be alongside other needs as well of course.

Teaching is definitely still considered relevant for training to be an EP - it's about reflecting on your experience and use of psychology to support the needs of the children, and your interpersonal skills

(edited 3 years ago)

Reply 4

Noodlzzz

Original post by QuestioningPsych

What about focusing on CAMHS etc. post DClinPsych?

Reply 5

Emzemz

No problem! I think you would definitely have a good shot at an educational psychology doctorate! It’s okay not to have your job title directly teaching children with SEN, as long as you can use that experience to reflect on what you’ve learned. Coming from someone who was originally headed down the ClinPsych route, and is now seeing how competitive it is (not just for the doctorate but even to get experience for applying!), it’s tough! I’m now looking into teaching so that I can go down the Educational psychology path! Good luck! No matter which route you choose, I’m sure you’ll do great!

Reply 6

marinade

Original post by username5359312

Also, out of interest, would teaching aid an application to a Clinical Psychology programme at all? I appreciate with this doctorate you would need additional clinical experience.

You need to think about things in terms of skills. So continuing professional development, reflective practice, supervision from a clinical psychologist or someone else, safeguarding and so on.

For both doctorates you're expected to have a bouquet of experience.

Reply 7

15977emily

Don't know when you're applying, but maybe when it gets back to 'normal' you could do some volunteering? It shows that you are not just in it for the paycheck and that you are actually interested! A SEMH Special School I think would work or maybe a specialist unit? Most probably isn't something 'necessary' but you'd most probably have a higher chance in getting in to it! I'd also recommend maybe some volunteering as a TA in a mainstream school? Shows that you want to work with all types of SEN and not just the ones the are 'easier' or 'harder'? (Don't literally mean easier or harder!)

Reply 8

username5365206

Original post by 15977emily

I thought this was quite an interesting comment. As someone who's transitioning into the Psychology field, there does seem to be this sense of doing volunteer-based/unpaid work in order to demonstrate that we 'care'. Even now, the NHS has introduced 'Honorary' Assistant Psychologist roles where people are unpaid for doing very similar work to paid Assistant Psychology roles. I feel this makes Doctorate programmes quite exclusive in a way as it implies they're only open to those who can afford to undergo years of voluntary/poorly paid work for the skill set.

With regards to the original poster - teaching is great experience and you definitely shouldn't volunteer as a teaching assistant once you've earned your professional qualifications as a teacher... I'm not really sure what the purpose of that would be, but I do agree it would prove beneficial to garner some experience in a more SEN-focused setting. If this isn't available at your school perhaps you could ask colleagues who might have links to other schools or shadow your SENCO?

There's a more obvious link to the Educational Psychology doctorate for sure, but that experience of working with children (young if you're primary/adolescent if secondary) will definitely boost your application if you decide to head down the DClinPsy route also.

Reply 9

marinade

Original post by ChangeDirection

Mental Health has huge numbers of volunteers, especially just outside the NHS. The NHS has many volunteers in other areas, my trust has around 1000. Covid-19 has shown this where there have been many surveys on MH services, cuts and it has flagged up that many services have a majority of volunteers (with those paid ones often on furlough). It would be great if it were otherwise, but the numbers to make things 100% paid are mindboggling and MH is not sexy or well funded and fundraising opportunities are quite miserly in the grander scheme of things. Demand is mindboggling, even before covid-19. All places should treat volunteers reasonably. There are as in all spheres of life some psychology volunteering that 'isn't worth doing' if seen from a very narrow perspective comparing with other opportunities.

Most of the 'routes' into clinical psychology are viewed from a particular angle money saving exercises. PWPs were a money saving exercise. Assistant PWPs were a money saving exercise. APs were a money saving exercise. IAPT's creation was a money saving exercise.

You should bear in mind that some of the people you talk to sometimes may be volunteers completely unbeknown to you, or have been volunteers. A comment I used to get quite often was how long have I worked for xxx and sometimes how much do I get paid? Society generally doesn't understand this and assumes that if it's something as important as MH there must be sumptuous salaries and stability. There isn't outside a few trodden paths. Often psychology students think the same. If an 18 or 19 year old is saying this it'll be brushed off. During interviews it does irritate people if people say things like 'I want to be a Doctor' or intimate what's the minimum amount of time they can volunteer for before getting on the doctorate. It also annoys the hell out of other volunteers and quite often, also paid people in services.

It's 2020 and a psychology graduate is expected to have a bouquet of paid and voluntary experience, six or seven things on hitting graduation and a tough couple of years immediately after. Sadly it is years of low paid work following a dream often.

What do you do/did you do for you to want to change direction and go into psychology?

Reply 10

marinade

Original post by ChangeDirection

I totally respect your points @marinade and 100% agree with you. I'm not naive in thinking all opportunities should be paid and am thankful that volunteering opportunities exist as they allow people to experience working within different roles and/or across differing areas of psychology and thus truly build up their experience, skills and most importantly understanding of the field alongside the demands of potential Doctorate study.

Does this mean that someone who has only gained experience in paid roles cares less than someone with voluntary experience though? I don't believe so. It also can't be ignored that for some people, following their dream might be unobtainable as they may have wider financial pressures which don't allow them to commit to such an abundance of voluntary experience. As you've highlighted, mental health unfortunately isn't seen as a 'sexy' (love that by the way) area for government investment/funding and as a result does rely on a wide variety of volunteer work. Doesn't mean it should be that way, but I appreciate that that's the way it is.

All being said, what I think is wonderful about Psychology is it's something that a person can work towards over time and is a subject that lends itself well to wider experience that isn't necessarily 'psychology' focused. I don't expect to do the bare minimum to get onto a Doctorate programme and I enjoy that I can build up my understanding and experience over a longer period of time before reaching that dream position. I have so many friends that instantly started earning significant amounts but now have zero job satisfaction as they don't feel their life and their work interact at all. The Oxford Psych on Youtube recently highlighted these points and it helped me further appreciate the longer route to the Doctorate programme.

I'm a Special Educational Needs Coordinator and have previous volunteer experience in social care with the elderly and adolescent mental health services. Upon gaining GBC I do aim to get a paid-role within the NHS - not sure what, as you'll be able to tell from my other threads! - possibly followed by a specialised Master's with clinical experience. I'd also like to gain some voluntary experience working with the working-adult population as the majority of my (working) experience is with children, but don't have the means to alongside my current work. I will admit I am concerned that without this additional voluntary experience I won't be able to find a paid employment opportunity upon GBC as it's a big area to have missing, but I am not able leave my current employment to gain this additional voluntary experience.

One of the biggest advantages of volunteering I believe is that advice and perspective. Not where you are, but many other universities there is a bubble mentality in psychology, particularly undergraduate. I've spoken to so many undergrads where they get frustrated when they realise the standard orthodox spiel by the unis fight for placements and thou shall apply for NHS APs places, thou shalt fret over PWP at the local uni. It's quite toxic.

There is a huge amount of kudos and care in paid roles, support worker in particular to me. These are people that care and it's a job society doesn't get.

Tsunami is a word I'm hearing a lot MH provision in the covid era. I think it's good to be sceptical of stuff the NHS says on mental health with what's coming, but you have to work out your own route. I've met people who genuinely liked being assistant PWPs and many who hated being APs or PWPs and so on.

I wouldn't get too frustrated with the honourary AP. The ones I've met weren't treated terribly well as far as I could tell. The issue of volunteering as an AP comes up against the same sort of issues as other voluntary roles, but the NHS can be very ruthless. The pressure of thinking I have to have made x progress by the year/age y clouds things.

The unobtainability is a reality. The reality is the unobtainability starts to happen even before university with lack of access to doing A-levels or other courses. Even for those at university you see this on CVs. You read a lot of CVs from psychology students often from lower ranking universities where it's full of retail and hospitality and that's just to stay afloat so it's harder to cram in the extra voluntary experience. Often people find it quite hard to sift through that and try and see what's there and why it might apply to mental health and skills - they are often there. The posher ones, yes they often know the language and buzzwords at age 18/19, have managed to be bunged some experience often and so on.

I particularly dislike the micro-doping/dosing psychology CV. Having said that I believe it's slowly where things are going with the level of competition. Someone I used to volunteer with got on the doctorate at a very young age, but they were an absolute past master at having several things on the go at once and playing off job/voluntary position against the other and doing the absolute minimum. On the CV it looked absolutely amazing.

Additional voluntary experience with adults may not necessarily be the case needed for you from where you come from. APs tend to come in a large variety of shapes and sizes. I think for a non-NHS AP role you would stand quite a good chance actually. This is the classic mistake a lot of people make just applying for cycles of APs in particularly popular places and the same with PWP and then getting rejected :frown:

. The other thing you have to bear in mind is that APs is really a game of musical chairs. Many in some locations only stay in post for 6/9/12 months and then move from a bad employer to a good one, or one that has a different type of experience, or better to commute to etc. Plenty of other roles NHS and otherwise as you're aware.

That's brilliant. You just have to be careful on the education background. People from education wanting to go into psychology are extremely common. Probably not for you as you're interested in educational too, but for clinical psychology I think there's a bit of a mismatch in terms of terminology and how the skills transfer/mesh for application processes. The application cycles are also learning experiences.