When will the Tories behave like the Tories again?

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Gundabad(good)
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Quady)
I suppose a scorched earth policy gives a nice low baseline to build from.
You need to break something to fix something after all.
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Burton Bridge
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#22
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(Original post by Other_Owl)
They are behaving like a Labour government rn.
Not a true labour government, the things they are doing still benefit those with higher incomes the most.

Personally I dont understand why people are surprised this government are acting like New labour, it was obvious from their manifesto they would act be New Labour 2.0 - and they are in all areas bar Brexit.
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imlikeahermit
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I just want to see them clamp down on crime.
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Quady
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#24
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Not a true labour government, the things they are doing still benefit those with higher incomes the most.

Personally I dont understand why people are surprised this government are acting like New labour, it was obvious from their manifesto they would act be New Labour 2.0 - and they are in all areas bar Brexit.
Like what? Those over £50k are stuffed by the schemes introduced.
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Iñigo de Loyola
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#25
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
I just want to see them clamp down on crime.
Yeah. Out of interest what do you think about Harper's Law?
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imlikeahermit
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#26
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Yeah. Out of interest what do you think about Harper's Law?
I think it needs in depth research looking at previous cases to see as to whether it would fit those, not just on this one case. However, in the Harper case especially I would fully support it. They are career criminals who knew exactly what they were doing.

However, I do think that it requires more than just a law of punishment for the killing of emergency service workers. These people shouldn’t be being abused in the first place, never mind killed. Cases like we’ve seen with Dawn Butler completely eradicate any respect for emergency services. I believe there needs to be a major government drive in order to restore respect towards our emergency services. Some, can help themselves, like the police not bending the knee at every opportunity, but I think there needs to be an overhaul of the system before it gets to the murder stage. For example, an emergency worker after doing a 12 hour shift came out to find her bike stolen. It was later recovered, and returned, however, I don’t know what the punishment was for the criminal in question for the petty theft, but I guarantee it wasn’t jail time, or as severe as it should be. There are a minority who flout laws constantly and think they’re above police intervention. They need dealt with harshly. That, in truth, will never happen.

Apologies for war in peace but I do think that while Harper’s Law is necessary, it shouldn’t be needed in the first place. Tackling petty criminals further down the chain will help start things off.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Quady)
Like what? Those over £50k are stuffed by the schemes introduced.
Just one off the top of my head, the recent axing of stamp duty great for wealthy landlords and middle/upper class people buying 300k plus properties, however for those genuinely struggling like FTB from poorer working class families buying average houses no benefit at all.

Who benefits the most.... on order wealthy landlords top, then upper class housing then middle classes, then any working class people who may be moving up the property ladder to a 300k house. Wonder who get absolutely **** out the situation the poor people with limited disposable incoming struggling to get on the property ladder. Great progression
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Burton Bridge
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#28
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(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Yeah. Out of interest what do you think about Harper's Law?
I know it isnt aimed at me but I'm answering anyway. I'm actually right wing in crime and punishment, which actually might shock you

Anyway, I'm against any bill which treats the worth of one demographics life above another demographics life. In short killing with intent to kill should carry life anyway, even if it's a 9 year old, trans, bisexual, black, gay pre op, woman (add any other group that gets special victim cards) intentionally taking life should mean life anyway. Therefore in my world EMG service Personnel would be protected by measures in Harper's law anyway.

So now that's cleared up Harper's law shouldn't be needed in the first place. We need to work on providing opportunities for all then become harsher on those higher in the criminal world.
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Quady
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Just one off the top of my head, the recent axing of stamp duty great for wealthy landlords and middle/upper class people buying 300k plus properties, however for those genuinely struggling like FTB from poorer working class families buying average houses no benefit at all.

Who benefits the most.... on order wealthy landlords top, then upper class housing then middle classes, then any working class people who may be moving up the property ladder to a 300k house. Wonder who get absolutely **** out the situation the poor people with limited disposable incoming struggling to get on the property ladder. Great progression
Clearly you know more wealthy landlords than I do.

The only people I know who have benefited from that are a FTB couple both on less than £50k.

I'd have thought landlords wouldn't be too happy about the extention to banning evictions being extended.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Quady)
Clearly you know more wealthy landlords than I do.

The only people I know who have benefited from that are a FTB couple both on less than £50k.

I'd have thought landlords wouldn't be too happy about the extention to banning evictions being extended.
Explain to me how a FTB couple under 50k income buying an average priced house in the UK have benefited from the stamp duty axing of a tax they dont qualify to pay anyway? :rolleyes:

Being a landlord I kind of guess I'm in a informed place to comment. We dont want to evict people willy nilly anyway, are we happy we cannt evict at present no, not at all. It's a tough time to be a landlord but it's a tough time to be anyone. Again this will effect the landlords with 1 or 2 properties more than those with 50 or so, shall I explain why or can you see this?
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imlikeahermit
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I know it isnt aimed at me but I'm answering anyway. I'm actually right wing in crime and punishment, which actually might shock you

Anyway, I'm against any bill which treats the worth of one demographics life above another demographics life. In short killing with intent to kill should carry life anyway, even if it's a 9 year old, trans, bisexual, black, gay pre op, woman (add any other group that gets special victim cards) intentionally taking life should mean life anyway. Therefore in my world EMG service Personnel would be protected by measures in Harper's law anyway.

So now that's cleared up Harper's law shouldn't be needed in the first place. We need to work on providing opportunities for all then become harsher on those higher in the criminal world.
Good god. I agree with you... :eek:

The last paragraph, anyway...
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Burton Bridge
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#32
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Good god. I agree with you... :eek:

The last paragraph, anyway...
Few people with intelligence will be right wing or left wing in all areas, if they are normally you find they are not expressing their own views they are paraphrasing their chosen tribal leaders brainwashing speeches. Easy for a right wing person to agree with a left wing person when they switch to the right wing in a subject. It's harder to objectively listen to alternate views and understand them. Easy option is to plug ears and shout "stupid,racist, etc."

What do disagree with in the other paragraphs?
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 month ago
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Iñigo de Loyola
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#33
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
I think it needs in depth research looking at previous cases to see as to whether it would fit those, not just on this one case. However, in the Harper case especially I would fully support it. They are career criminals who knew exactly what they were doing.

However, I do think that it requires more than just a law of punishment for the killing of emergency service workers. These people shouldn’t be being abused in the first place, never mind killed. Cases like we’ve seen with Dawn Butler completely eradicate any respect for emergency services. I believe there needs to be a major government drive in order to restore respect towards our emergency services. Some, can help themselves, like the police not bending the knee at every opportunity, but I think there needs to be an overhaul of the system before it gets to the murder stage. For example, an emergency worker after doing a 12 hour shift came out to find her bike stolen. It was later recovered, and returned, however, I don’t know what the punishment was for the criminal in question for the petty theft, but I guarantee it wasn’t jail time, or as severe as it should be. There are a minority who flout laws constantly and think they’re above police intervention. They need dealt with harshly. That, in truth, will never happen.

Apologies for war in peace but I do think that while Harper’s Law is necessary, it shouldn’t be needed in the first place. Tackling petty criminals further down the chain will help start things off.
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I know it isnt aimed at me but I'm answering anyway. I'm actually right wing in crime and punishment, which actually might shock you

Anyway, I'm against any bill which treats the worth of one demographics life above another demographics life. In short killing with intent to kill should carry life anyway, even if it's a 9 year old, trans, bisexual, black, gay pre op, woman (add any other group that gets special victim cards) intentionally taking life should mean life anyway. Therefore in my world EMG service Personnel would be protected by measures in Harper's law anyway.

So now that's cleared up Harper's law shouldn't be needed in the first place. We need to work on providing opportunities for all then become harsher on those higher in the criminal world.
Yeah, I'm not too keen on the concept of a two tier legal system, but on the other hand it would help stop attacks on emergency workers.
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Few people with intelligence will be right wing or left wing in all areas, if they are normally you find they are not expressing their own views they are paraphrasing their chosen tribal leaders brainwashing speeches. Easy for a right wing person to agree with a left wing person when they switch to the right wing in a subject. It's harder to objectively listen to alternate views and understand them. Easy option is to plug ears and shout "stupid,racist, etc."

What do disagree with in the other paragraphs?
Definitely. I agree with a lot of what Kier Starmer has to say on lockdowns and I think we should do something about climate change - holding those beliefs doesn't make me a leftist and I think some people need to recognise that agreeing with people across the political spectrum is a good thing.
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imlikeahermit
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Few people with intelligence will be right wing or left wing in all areas, if they are normally you find they are not expressing their own views they are paraphrasing their chosen tribal leaders brainwashing speeches. Easy for a right wing person to agree with a left wing person when they switch to the right wing in a subject. It's harder to objectively listen to alternate views and understand them. Easy option is to plug ears and shout "stupid,racist, etc."

What do disagree with in the other paragraphs?
I don’t necessarily disagree with the other paragraphs either. I in fact, fully support what you’re saying that the intent to kill should carry life. However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having an extra law in there to help protect emergency personnel. They put their lives on the line constantly, which I know they are aware of. But like we’ve both said, they should never have to work in an environment where they’re not safe.

The Harper case is unique. We all know they knew he was there, we all know that they’ve got away with it. Yet our legal system allows for smiling laughing career criminals to get 8 years in prison for the murder of a police officer, which is just so so wrong.
(Original post by LiberOfLondon)
Yeah, I'm not too keen on the concept of a two tier legal system, but on the other hand it would help stop attacks on emergency workers.

Definitely. I agree with a lot of what Kier Starmer has to say on lockdowns and I think we should do something about climate change - holding those beliefs doesn't make me a leftist and I think some people need to recognise that agreeing with people across the political spectrum is a good thing.
I agree, however, I think stopping those attacks in the first place is a good start. Long term prison sentences for those who attack emergency services.
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Iñigo de Loyola
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#35
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#35
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
I agree, however, I think stopping those attacks in the first place is a good start. Long term prison sentences for those who attack emergency services.
Which is what Harper's Law (automatic life sentences for the killing of an emergency worker) would do.
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Fullofsurprises
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#36
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Just one off the top of my head, the recent axing of stamp duty great for wealthy landlords and middle/upper class people buying 300k plus properties, however for those genuinely struggling like FTB from poorer working class families buying average houses no benefit at all.
Yes, like the various Help to Buy schemes, just your basic Tory pandering to middle class older voters (they after all are the only people who vote now) by giving handouts to their kids. Not very inspiring stuff.
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Quady
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Yes, like the various Help to Buy schemes, just your basic Tory pandering to middle class older voters (they after all are the only people who vote now) by giving handouts to their kids. Not very inspiring stuff.
Not just taken from Labour's playbook of 2009 then? (or HMT's...)
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Quady)
Not just taken from Labour's playbook of 2009 then? (or HMT's...)
The fact we have new labour 2.0 in power does not mean anything, the point was the polices disproportionately benefited those with higher incomes.
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Quady
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
The fact we have new labour 2.0 in power does not mean anything, the point was the polices disproportionately benefited those with higher incomes.
Fullofsurprises' point seemed to be about the Tories protecting its perceived voter base.
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DanB1991
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
I don’t necessarily disagree with the other paragraphs either. I in fact, fully support what you’re saying that the intent to kill should carry life. However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having an extra law in there to help protect emergency personnel. They put their lives on the line constantly, which I know they are aware of. But like we’ve both said, they should never have to work in an environment where they’re not safe.

The Harper case is unique. We all know they knew he was there, we all know that they’ve got away with it. Yet our legal system allows for smiling laughing career criminals to get 8 years in prison for the murder of a police officer, which is just so so wrong.

I agree, however, I think stopping those attacks in the first place is a good start. Long term prison sentences for those who attack emergency services.
Harpers law is incredibly dangerous for multiple reasons. Firstly it suggests emergency workers (and by extent state workers) lives are more valuable than the rest of us. You then have situations that could have massive grey area's that would naturally arise with resulting automatic life sentences. It's the kind of laws police states love, albeit I will admit the UK is far from a police state, but it gives law enforcement tougher powers to fight dissent.

Onto your second point.... no they did not murder Harper, all three defendants were found not guilty of intentionally killing Mr Harper. As much as you do not agree with it, the jury decided they were not guilty with murder. Simply stating "we all know they got away with it", is akin to stating "we all know they murdered him" which is completely wrong seeing a court of law, decided by their peers did not think so.

Ultimately Lissie Harper is completely the wrong person to be even heading this campaign, yes what happened is sad, but she's compromised by grief and bias rather than what should be a rational, fair and logical decision by lawmakers. We also 'know' via various studies and comparisons of sentencing around the world (both current and historically) the actual sentence does very little to reduce or dissuade crime. The main things that prevent crime is firstly opportunity and secondly the likelihood of getting caught. Having more and better funded police on the street would be far more effective than any 'Harpers law'.
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