Rule Britannia faces axe in BBC’s ‘Black Lives Matter Proms’

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QE2
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Napp)
Now i'm usually a staunch defender of the BBC but this seems rather beyond the pale. Censoring the most enjoyed night the proms and two of the most well known hymns (two of the unofficial anthems no less) in the name of some irreverent woke ****ery. For shame.
As far as pandering to small vocal minority goes this seems rather tasteless. Not to mention historically illiterate as neither of the songs can plausibly be remotely linked to "slavery".


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...box=1598150117
*wobbly 40 year flashback cutaway*

"Now i'm usually a staunch defender of the BBC but this seems rather beyond the pale. "The Black and White Minstrel Show" is the most enjoyed programme on a Saturday night. As far as pandering to small vocal minority goes this seems rather tasteless. Not to mention historically illiterate as this harmless fun cannot plausibly be remotely linked to "racism"."
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RtheBotanist
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(Original post by JWatch)
We are often told that we should "celebrate diversity" and yet when people try to celebrate British culture we are accused of being racist. So can people make up their mind, is celebrating culture a good thing or not?

I've been to some proms and I really enjoy Rule Britannia. There's something about the way you see people from all walks of life uniting together in song, with pride. It's like all the usual daily stress and grind is put to one side and we celebrate our history and culture in friendship together. I don't believe Britain or the British people are superior to anyone else, but there are lots of little things that make me proud of our culture. The stiff upper lip, the blitz spirit. The tea, I always love a cuppa. We queue like civilized people instead of mad scrambles. I don't see why it's wrong to celebrate culture?

Maybe that's old fashioned and people today just aren't into patriotism. Fair enough I suppose. But try to imagine an interest that you feel passionate about, something that doesn't harm anybody, and yet other people tell you you shouldn't be doing it or try to cancel it. Wouldn't you feel that was unfair for them to try and dictate what you should be doing?
The thing is, British culture has so much more to it that the fact that we spent hundreds of years rampaging around the world abusing indigenous peoples. Yet we seem to fixate on our military achievements, dominance and nostalgia-inducing symbols of these that gloss over the humanitarian tragedies that they really were.The UK has a proud folk tradition, brilliant humour, a massive historical influence on the world of science and has contributed immensely to so many western artistic movements in the last 200 years in music, art and architecture.

The thing about patriotism is that it's meant to be blind, its entire purpose is to make sure a population respects and obeys the entity that is their country (meaning, of course, central government and the military) regardless of its moral position. From my experience, self-declared patriots will go out of their way to deny colonial atrocities, war crimes or even modern systemic problems within the country. They are almost exclusively on the political right, and will (ironically) dismiss any attempts to invest in the country or look at the root causes of societal issues, instead wanting to return to an age gone by when people had more 'moral fibre' and hadn't 'gone soft'. They want the country to be tougher, greedier, harsher and more discriminatory to everyone who isn't them.

My point is, the word 'patriotism' comes loaded with a lot of dangerous ideological baggage, so I personally avoid it at all costs. I like many aspects of my country, but I feel glad rather proud of these things- they have nothing to do with me personally. I'm all for celebrating anything and everything that isn't directly responsible for mass human suffering.
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nulli tertius
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#23
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#23
(Original post by QE2)
*wobbly 40 year flashback cutaway*

"Now i'm usually a staunch defender of the BBC but this seems rather beyond the pale. "The Black and White Minstrel Show" is the most enjoyed programme on a Saturday night. As far as pandering to small vocal minority goes this seems rather tasteless. Not to mention historically illiterate as this harmless fun cannot plausibly be remotely linked to "racism"."
As seen in Britain, it wasn't.

A blacked up Welshman pretending to be a blacked up white American singing "songs from the shows" whilst wholesomely romancing a group of white female singers and dancers was so divorced from the original to have lost all cultural reference for the core audience. This isn't To Kill a Mockingbird with the implicit threat of black sexual violence to white women. There is nothing "wrong" in the members of the Mitchell Minstrels singing love songs to white women. You can see that if you look at contemporary reviews of Lenny Henry's seasons with the Mitchell Minstrels. He is perceived as having no greater affinity to the blacked up performers than to Orville the duck (who appeared on some of the same bills). They are in blackface the same way that a pipe band wears tartan. Wearing blackface was what you did if you sang this repetoire.

Contrast the Black & White Minstrels with the furore that, contempraneously, meant that some US TV stations refused to show Uruhu and Kirk's kiss in Star Trek.

And yes; I have seen the Mitchell Minstrels on stage; unfortunately without Lenny Henry, whom I didn't see live until he played Othello.
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JWatch
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#24
(Original post by RtheBotanist)
The thing is, British culture has so much more to it that the fact that we spent hundreds of years rampaging around the world abusing indigenous peoples. Yet we seem to fixate on our military achievements, dominance and nostalgia-inducing symbols of these that gloss over the humanitarian tragedies that they really were.The UK has a proud folk tradition, brilliant humour, a massive historical influence on the world of science and has contributed immensely to so many western artistic movements in the last 200 years in music, art and architecture.

The thing about patriotism is that it's meant to be blind, its entire purpose is to make sure a population respects and obeys the entity that is their country (meaning, of course, central government and the military) regardless of its moral position. From my experience, self-declared patriots will go out of their way to deny colonial atrocities, war crimes or even modern systemic problems within the country. They are almost exclusively on the political right, and will (ironically) dismiss any attempts to invest in the country or look at the root causes of societal issues, instead wanting to return to an age gone by when people had more 'moral fibre' and hadn't 'gone soft'. They want the country to be tougher, greedier, harsher and more discriminatory to everyone who isn't them.

My point is, the word 'patriotism' comes loaded with a lot of dangerous ideological baggage, so I personally avoid it at all costs. I like many aspects of my country, but I feel glad rather proud of these things- they have nothing to do with me personally. I'm all for celebrating anything and everything that isn't directly responsible for mass human suffering.
I couldn't disagree more. I don't see what's dangerous about being proud of my country and celebrating it's rich and diverse culture. It's not harming anybody. Do you have something in your life you feel passionate about, maybe a hobby or a special interest, something that others might think is old fashioned or odd but doesn't actually harm anybody. If so, how would you like it if people came along and tried to get it cancelled, or said you should be ashamed of it?
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Napp
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#25
(Original post by QE2)
*wobbly 40 year flashback cutaway*

"Now i'm usually a staunch defender of the BBC but this seems rather beyond the pale. "The Black and White Minstrel Show" is the most enjoyed programme on a Saturday night. As far as pandering to small vocal minority goes this seems rather tasteless. Not to mention historically illiterate as this harmless fun cannot plausibly be remotely linked to "racism"."
Are you attempting to make a point QE?
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RtheBotanist
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(Original post by JWatch)
I couldn't disagree more. I don't see what's dangerous about being proud of my country and celebrating it's rich and diverse culture. It's not harming anybody. Do you have something in your life you feel passionate about, maybe a hobby or a special interest, something that others might think is old fashioned or odd but doesn't actually harm anybody. If so, how would you like it if people came along and tried to get it cancelled, or said you should be ashamed of it?
As I stated, I'm happy to celebrate many aspects of our culture, just not the bits where we glorify the empire days. I have lots of rather quaint interests and hobbies, none of which involve celebrating the history of our empire and military might. I actually think that it is possible to be fascinated by unpleasant bits of history while not celebrating them on a moral level. I don't judge those who study the empire, only those who celebrate it or yearn for its return.

It is also possible to hold some absolutely vile opinions and interests without actually harming other people, but that doesn't make them right. If many people happen to hold those vile opinions, an unpleasant culture might develop that allows vile things to happen. UK history and culture is a perfectly valid interest, so long as things are seen in their proper humanitarian context.
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Kitten in boots
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The wonderful comedy of this is the same conservative establishment papers that are feeding the masses their daily dose of hysteria over this issue were *****ing last year because because the last night of the proms was full of EU flags.

That's the thing about patriotism. It is not rational, it is emotional and the establishment know just how to play people's emotions.
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JWatch
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(Original post by RtheBotanist)
As I stated, I'm happy to celebrate many aspects of our culture, just not the bits where we glorify the empire days. I have lots of rather quaint interests and hobbies, none of which involve celebrating the history of our empire and military might. I actually think that it is possible to be fascinated by unpleasant bits of history while not celebrating them on a moral level. I don't judge those who study the empire, only those who celebrate it or yearn for its return.

It is also possible to hold some absolutely vile opinions and interests without actually harming other people, but that doesn't make them right. If many people happen to hold those vile opinions, an unpleasant culture might develop that allows vile things to happen. UK history and culture is a perfectly valid interest, so long as things are seen in their proper humanitarian context.
I think we'll need to agree to disagree, I don't think it's quaint or unpleasant at all to celebrate your culture. What I enjoyed the most during the Rule Britannia was seeing so many people from all walks of life uniting together as one. Financial managers singing along with shelf stackers, it's like any class divisions and snobbery and petty disputes all melt away as everyone comes together in pride and friendship at our shared national culture.
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Napp
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(Original post by Kitten in boots)
The wonderful comedy of this is the same conservative establishment papers that are feeding the masses their daily dose of hysteria over this issue were *****ing last year because because the last night of the proms was full of EU flags.

That's the thing about patriotism. It is not rational, it is emotional and the establishment know just how to play people's emotions.
*****y papers flap in the wind to sell papers, one of lifes little truisms.
I never quite got the issue with EU flags though, especially apposed to this. But hey ho.
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the beer
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Did anyone actually ask for this or is it just the BBC up to their usual tricks?
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Napp
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#31
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(Original post by JWatch)
I think we'll need to agree to disagree, I don't think it's quaint or unpleasant at all to celebrate your culture. What I enjoyed the most during the Rule Britannia was seeing so many people from all walks of life uniting together as one. Financial managers singing along with shelf stackers, it's like any class divisions and snobbery and petty disputes all melt away as everyone comes together in pride and friendship at our shared national culture.
Alas that is the reason the so called "progressives" have taken it upon themselves to take aim at it as the next target in their culture war. What's more interesting is they don't seem to understand why people don't agree with them trying to tear down aspects of British culture for no particular reason :rolleyes:
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Rule, Britannia! The origins of a patriotic song

Rule, Britannia! is not a celebration of imperialism. It’s too early. But its celebration of national identity has a political theme. It was first performed in 1740 at Cliveden, Buckinghamshire, the home of the Prince of Wales, for a masque based on the life of King Alfred.

The Anglo-Saxon king was invoked by the Patriot Opposition to Sir Robert Walpole, in effect Britain’s first prime minister, and George II, Prince Frederick’s father. Walpole sought peace with Europe even at the cost of Britain’s commercial ambitions and only reluctantly declared war on Spain in 1739. To the opposition, Frederick was the model for a future king.

When Britain first, at heaven’s command, Arose from out the azure main, This was the charter of the land . . .

By referring to the azure main, the lyrics emphasise Britain’s pre-eminent role as a naval power. It is this link between the sea and national territory on land that distinguishes Britain from other empires, and its exceptionalism is determined by a deliberate decision of divine favour.

The nations not so blest as thee Must, in their turn, to tyrants fall, While thou shalt flourish great and free

Continuing the theme of British distinctiveness, the ode stresses heavenly blessings and liberty. It’s an allusion to Protestantism, as opposed to Catholic Europe, and to the curbing of royal powers leading to the Bill of Rights of 1689, in contrast to French and Spanish absolutism.

Still more majestic shalt thou rise, More dreadful from each foreign stroke . . .

Everyone in the initial audience will have known what the foreign strokes were: the supposed humiliations imposed by Spanish vessels on Britain’s merchant shipping in the Caribbean. It was a commercial dispute in which Spain believed it was cutting off illegal trade with its colonies, whereas Britain saw the matter in loftier terms of the freedom of navigation.

Thee haughty tyrants ne’er shall tame; All their attempts to bend thee down Will but arouse thy generous flame . . .

Once you grasp the import of the preceding stanza, this becomes a little overblown. The 1713 Treaty of Utrecht had put Britain in a commanding trading position, not least in acquiring Gibraltar. The Patriot Opposition laments that Walpole’s strategy has caused this power to diminish.

The Muses, still with freedom found, Shall to thy happy coasts repair. Blest isle! with matchless beauty crowned, And manly hearts to guard the fair.

In the Battle of Portobello of 1739, British ships claimed victory. The commander, Vice-Admiral Edward Vernon, became a hero and the manly heart the audience would be recalling was bound to be his. The war became a disaster.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves! Britons never, never, never will be slaves.

The conclusion alludes to a complaint that Spanish traders had kept seized British sailors in conditions akin to slavery. The conflict begun in 1739 was known as the War of Jenkins’ Ear, after Captain Robert Jenkins had his ear cut off by Spaniards for illegal trading. Note it is “rule” rather than “rules”. Britain does not have an empire. That will come later.
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DiddyDec
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So according to the Torygraph, it is in fact just the BBC being a woke joke as per usual.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ule-britannia/

Another reason not to give the BBC any money.
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Napp
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
So according to the Torygraph, it is in fact just the BBC being a woke joke as per usual.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ule-britannia/

Another reason not to give the BBC any money.
What i don't get it how theyve managed to pervert 'being inclusive' to mean ignoring the majority in favour of the minority. Hell not even a minority with a real grievance as its only a couple of loud mouth malcontents who seem to get uppity on such things and demand it all be binned.
Its really a shame seeing the BBC bend over backwards to rubbish its formerly sterling name these days.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Napp)
What i don't get it how theyve managed to pervert 'being inclusive' to mean ignoring the majority in favour of the minority. Hell not even a minority with a real grievance as its only a couple of loud mouth malcontents who seem to get uppity on such things and demand it all be binned.
Its really a shame seeing the BBC bend over backwards to rubbish its formerly sterling name these days.
What is strange is they aren't actually listening to any minority, they make up a hypothetical minority then pander to something that doesn't actually exist.

In all my years I have never heard anyone say you can't sing these particular songs because racism.
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Napp
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
What is strange is they aren't actually listening to any minority, they make up a hypothetical minority then pander to something that doesn't actually exist.

In all my years I have never heard anyone say you can't sing these particular songs because racism.
Sorry, i should have been clearer, i didnt mean an ethnic minority or anything like that i meant one or two gum flappers but i do take your point on this one.
Same, although now the airwaves (read social media) seem to be full of self appointed experts on the "racism and horror" of these two good old tunes.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Napp)
Sorry, i should have been clearer, i didnt mean an ethnic minority or anything like that i meant one or two gum flappers but i do take your point on this one.
Same, although now the airwaves (read social media) seem to be full of self appointed experts on the "racism and horror" of these two good old tunes.
I really don't use a lot of social media that opens me up to these self styled ****wits. My twitter is mostly filled with lawyers and QCs.
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Napp
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
I really don't use a lot of social media that opens me up to these self styled ****wits. My twitter is mostly filled with lawyers and QCs.
Aha mines just kittens, dark memes and firearms channels :lol: About the only use i can see for those platforms these days with the news either being not news or some rubbish being force fed to people through dodgy algorithms, alas.
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DiddyDec
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Aha mines just kittens, dark memes and firearms channels :lol: About the only use i can see for those platforms these days with the news either being not news or some rubbish being force fed to people through dodgy algorithms, alas.
That is why I like Twitter, I get to read what intelligent people have to say about the world. Then I have Reddit to crawl back to when I need non-political funnies and gun porn.
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Drewski
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What a colossal non story
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