Black man in Wisconsin remains in hospital after being shot by the police.

Watch
JWatch
Badges: 10
Rep:
?
#61
Report 4 weeks ago
#61
(Original post by nathan_nacu)
As i said, my judgement isn’t clouded. My reasoning is simple:

• There is no justification for the shots especially the number
• Suspect was unarmed
• Fears of weapon retention became illogical when they gripped his shirt and didn’t just fully body tackle him
• Due to the fear of weapon retention being illogical there are plenty of deescalation routes that could’ve been used (tasers, tackles).
• if force isn’t allowed but gunshots are ill be damned
• IF there was any magical reason which somehow made a gunshot justified (and i hold a 0.01% chance there was) then they should’ve stopped at 1 shot. 7 = borderline lunacy.

He was not accused of a serious crime, that is not his situation and it makes it easier to justify what happened by using a texas sharpshooter fallacy. The police were called for the women fighting but he decided to focus on the black man that he was NOT called for. Just that premise diminishes any hope of us viewing the situation as fair.

The police lost their right to ‘tell their story’ after they paralysed a man for no reason IN FRONT OF HIS THREE CHILDREN. If i had my way the officer who fired the shots would be publicly executed and buried in an unmarked grave to deter future occurrences like these ❤️

Black ppl keep getting told if they don’t want to die by the police we have to be saints, at this point if everytime a policeman unjustifiably murdered someone, then we executed them in the same way they killed their innocent victim, the problem would be stopped/solved much quicker 🥰
This is ridiculous circular logic. How do you actually know they don't have a reason for their actions if you won't allow them to give their side of the story?
0
reply
imlikeahermit
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#62
Report 4 weeks ago
#62
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
There's probably a white man in a Wisconsin hospital after being shot by police too.
Most sensible post in this thread by far.
0
reply
N. Auditoré
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#63
Report 4 weeks ago
#63
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Most sensible post in this thread by far.
I think a lot of white ppl miss the point when discussing this issue. If there is a white man in this situation we are fighting for you too because NOBODY deserves this! In my posts i have almost exclusively ignored race because at this point i just see the police as a whole issue themselves not just racism. This post is not sensible as it a tu quoque fallacy. So because a white man got shot too we should all be happy and Shutup? No. We fight regardless.

Oh and guess what? The VERY SAME Wisconsin police SAW a white man MURDER two people and he walked away. He wore his gun proudly on his neck afterwards and the police ignored him. The police shoot and paralyse a man on suspicion of a weapon but then let someone with an actual weapon who just murdered walk freely? Even cared for him, I wonder why......

Name:  CD36FCBC-7259-4F13-9293-7388B0A23312.jpg.jpeg
Views: 12
Size:  45.2 KB

Name:  3FFC4F73-DAED-4FA6-97CB-08B224ECAAD5.jpg.jpeg
Views: 11
Size:  32.8 KB

JWatch what do u think of this ?
Last edited by N. Auditoré; 4 weeks ago
0
reply
Jammy Duel
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#64
Report 4 weeks ago
#64
(Original post by nathan_nacu)
As i said, my judgement isn’t clouded. My reasoning is simple:

• There is no justification for the shots especially the number
• Suspect was unarmed
• Fears of weapon retention became illogical when they gripped his shirt and didn’t just fully body tackle him
• Due to the fear of weapon retention being illogical there are plenty of deescalation routes that could’ve been used (tasers, tackles).
• if force isn’t allowed but gunshots are ill be damned
• IF there was any magical reason which somehow made a gunshot justified (and i hold a 0.01% chance there was) then they should’ve stopped at 1 shot. 7 = borderline lunacy.

He was not accused of a serious crime, that is not his situation and it makes it easier to justify what happened by using a texas sharpshooter fallacy. The police were called for the women fighting but he decided to focus on the black man that he was NOT called for. Just that premise diminishes any hope of us viewing the situation as fair.

The police lost their right to ‘tell their story’ after they paralysed a man for no reason IN FRONT OF HIS THREE CHILDREN. If i had my way the officer who fired the shots would be publicly executed and buried in an unmarked grave to deter future occurrences like these ❤️

Black ppl keep getting told if they don’t want to die by the police we have to be saints, at this point if everytime a policeman unjustifiably murdered someone, then we executed them in the same way they killed their innocent victim, the problem would be stopped/solved much quicker 🥰
Actually being unarmed is irrelevant, what matter is reasonable belief they pose an immediate threat
The justification for the shots is tied to the above, the reasonable belief the suspect is going for a weapon, it is not uncommon for that to be what's happening in these sorts of instances, as for the number people can take a lot of shots to actually go down, when adrenaline starts pumping you can take a hell of a lot of damage without actually going down, look up Sgt. Timothy Gramins, he carries 145 rounds because he deemed the 47 he formerly carried insufficient after an incident in 2008 where he landed 14 hits, 6 of which were lethal hits (heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney) and the person trying to kill him still didn't go down until they were shot a further 3 times, all in the head, and even then they were still alive when they got to the hospital.
Last edited by Jammy Duel; 4 weeks ago
0
reply
N. Auditoré
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#65
Report 4 weeks ago
#65
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
Actually being unarmed is irrelevant, what matter is reasonable belief they pose an immediate threat
The justification for the shots is tied to the above, the reasonable belief the suspect is going for a weapon, it is not uncommon for that to be what's happening in these sorts of instances, as for the number people can take a lot of shots to actually go down, when adrenaline starts pumping you can take a hell of a lot of damage without actually going down, look up Sgt. Timothy Gramins, he carries 145 rounds because he deemed the 47 he formerly carried insufficient after an incident in 2008 where he landed 14 hits, 6 of which were lethal hits (heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney) and the person trying to kill him still didn't go down until they were shot a further 3 times, all in the head, and even then they were still alive when they got to the hospital.
All. One. Big. Anecdotal. Fallacy
0
reply
Napp
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#66
Report 4 weeks ago
#66
(Original post by nathan_nacu)
I think a lot of white ppl miss the point when discussing this issue. If there is a white man in this situation we are fighting for you too because NOBODY deserves this! In my posts i have almost exclusively ignored race because at this point i just see the police as a whole issue themselves not just racism. This post is not sensible as it a tu quoque fallacy. So because a white man got shot too we should all be happy and Shutup? No. We fight regardless.

Oh and guess what? The VERY SAME Wisconsin police SAW a white man MURDER two people and he walked away. He wore his gun proudly on his neck afterwards and the police ignored him. The police shoot and paralyse a man on suspicion of a weapon but then let someone with an actual weapon who just murdered walk freely? Even cared for him, I wonder why......

Name:  CD36FCBC-7259-4F13-9293-7388B0A23312.jpg.jpeg
Views: 12
Size:  45.2 KB

Name:  3FFC4F73-DAED-4FA6-97CB-08B224ECAAD5.jpg.jpeg
Views: 11
Size:  32.8 KB

JWatch what do u think of this ?
Have you actually seen the video from this? The kid was being swarmed by armed rioters..

Bigger point though, how have you attributed "racism" to this? Or is it simply the belief that the plods should have shot him as well?
0
reply
fallen_acorns
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#67
Report 4 weeks ago
#67
if the reports are true (I'm skeptical of all this stuff at the moment) that the police were aware he had a knife, and then found a knife in the part of the car he was going into...

Its a big if, but if that is the case, then I'm fine with the polices actions, and I would hope a white person gets treated the same.

(I'm also a bit uneasy with these 'victims' being held up as heros/martyrs etc. (again if) if his past criminal actions that are being banded about is true then he is a man with a history of sexual abuse and domestic violence among other things.. No that doesn't mean he deserves to die, but it also precludes him from being turned into a hero etc. for me. Make a point out of the situation fine, but to make a point out of a clearly bad man, not fine.
0
reply
Napp
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#68
Report 4 weeks ago
#68
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
if the reports are true (I'm skeptical of all this stuff at the moment) that the police were aware he had a knife, and then found a knife in the part of the car he was going into...

Its a big if, but if that is the case, then I'm fine with the polices actions, and I would hope a white person gets treated the same.

(I'm also a bit uneasy with these 'victims' being held up as heros/martyrs etc. (again if) if his past criminal actions that are being banded about is true then he is a man with a history of sexual abuse and domestic violence among other things.. No that doesn't mean he deserves to die, but it also precludes him from being turned into a hero etc. for me. Make a point out of the situation fine, but to make a point out of a clearly bad man, not fine.
Aye ive seen a few of these rumours, in particular one that said he was a nonce (although referenced so i havent the foggiest if its true) but you do raise an interesting point apropos blind hero worship. A particularly ironic turn of events for those doing it as theyre generally the ones to overlook all the good people have done and to focus on the negatives instead.

I am curious whats being said in police staff rooms up and down the country though. An interesting choice being thrust upon them to not police in fear of adverse media reporting.
0
reply
SHallowvale
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#69
Report 4 weeks ago
#69
Gotta love people coming up with every excuse they can to justify what was clearly excessive force and something that could easily have killed him.
0
reply
fallen_acorns
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#70
Report 4 weeks ago
#70
(Original post by Napp)
I am curious whats being said in police staff rooms up and down the country though. An interesting choice being thrust upon them to not police in fear of adverse media reporting.
It must be terrible getting into a situation with a black suspect who could be violent, knowing that if he were dangerous you could die, and if you stop him, your life could be ruined by the mob anyway..

Sure its easy to say that there is always a better way, but as someone whose never had my life threatened or been in that sort of crazy enviroment, I don't want to judge their actions too harshly.

Sky news are now reporting that the police force are claiming the officers had knowledge that he had a knife(because blake told them) and then found one in his car in the door he was going in, and that he had already resisted arrest, and tasering him didn't work. If that is true, and its not just the force trying to cover their backs, then I really feel for the cop because in my mind, he made the right decision.

The intersting thing about the hero stuff though is that hes not dead. Its much easier to elevate a dead person, but there should be some real moral questions about what happens next with this guy. Are the progressive left going to go around chanting the name of a domestic and sexual abuser? Even if his current situation wasn't fair/justified.

This case is certainly far less black and white then the last one. This time around its potentially a person who was resisting arrest, and had a weapon (if true)... but people are already lumping the two cases together as if there is no nuance or difference between them.

(its also very easy for most posters in the UK to not consider how terrifying it must be to live in a nation where everyone could be armed with a gun. Someone resisting arrest reaching into a car in the UK, and the worst its likely to be is a knife.. but in america, who knows)
Last edited by fallen_acorns; 4 weeks ago
2
reply
Occitanie
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#71
Report 4 weeks ago
#71
Lovely times in Portland!

0
reply
fallen_acorns
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#72
Report 4 weeks ago
#72
In general to police violence though.. I've said it before on here, as have a few other posters. Police violence is a symptom of racial problems, its not a cause or the root.

Imagine you have two cats...

One raised in a loving home, as such has no history of violence at all
One grew up in an abusive home with owners who attacked it, and has a history of biting/violence.

If you go up to those two cats, and both cats jump towards you.. how do you react?

Differently is the answer. Imidiatly your defensive and scared with the second, likely you lash out and hit it away. With the first your calm and embrace it.

Whose fault is it that you act differently to the two cats? Its not your own, its the abusive family that failed the second cat.

---

That's the analogy for policing in the USA. Statistically speaking its so so clear that black communities are more violent and dangerous then white communities. As such if your dealing with the worst of each, as police do, your naturally going to be much more on edge and far more scared/nervous when you deal with the more dangerous enviroment.

But does that mean its black peoples fault? No. They have been failed by hundreds of years of racist systems (the family in the analogy) that has consistently failed them, and left them in the state they are in. Poverty and crime go hand in hand, and given that none of American history was black peoples choice, you can't blame them for what has happened...

Does that mean its the polices fault? No, they are just reacting to an unfair society - they are a mirror, that's showing us the faults and flaws in our society, they aren't the cause of the flaws themselves.

The protestors who have a bit of intelligence get this and their plans are to change the entire system and elevate black communities out of poverty and crime (very difficult, but perfect aim).

The protestors who don't get this are the ones who want to defund the police and think the answer to police violence is not having police... They just lack the ability to connect things into the bigger picture, and are attacking the symptom not the cause. They are conceeling the rash, rather than threating the virus that's causing it.

---

So in short.. don't hate the police, hate the system/history that's got America into this mess.. Don't close the police, but instead do everytihng to elevate black (and all impoverished) communities.
0
reply
Occitanie
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#73
Report 4 weeks ago
#73
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
In general to police violence though.. I've said it before on here, as have a few other posters. Police violence is a symptom of racial problems, its not a cause or the root.

Imagine you have two cats...

One raised in a loving home, as such has no history of violence at all
One grew up in an abusive home with owners who attacked it, and has a history of biting/violence.

If you go up to those two cats, and both cats jump towards you.. how do you react?

Differently is the answer. Imidiatly your defensive and scared with the second, likely you lash out and hit it away. With the first your calm and embrace it.

Whose fault is it that you act differently to the two cats? Its not your own, its the abusive family that failed the second cat.

---

That's the analogy for policing in the USA. Statistically speaking its so so clear that black communities are more violent and dangerous then white communities. As such if your dealing with the worst of each, as police do, your naturally going to be much more on edge and far more scared/nervous when you deal with the more dangerous enviroment.

But does that mean its black peoples fault? No. They have been failed by hundreds of years of racist systems (the family in the analogy) that has consistently failed them, and left them in the state they are in. Poverty and crime go hand in hand, and given that none of American history was black peoples choice, you can't blame them for what has happened...

Does that mean its the polices fault? No, they are just reacting to an unfair society - they are a mirror, that's showing us the faults and flaws in our society, they aren't the cause of the flaws themselves.

The protestors who have a bit of intelligence get this and their plans are to change the entire system and elevate black communities out of poverty and crime (very difficult, but perfect aim).

The protestors who don't get this are the ones who want to defund the police and think the answer to police violence is not having police... They just lack the ability to connect things into the bigger picture, and are attacking the symptom not the cause. They are conceeling the rash, rather than threating the virus that's causing it.

---

So in short.. don't hate the police, hate the system/history that's got America into this mess.. Don't close the police, but instead do everytihng to elevate black (and all impoverished) communities.
That's a fair assessment, I would say. PRSOM
0
reply
Napp
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#74
Report 4 weeks ago
#74
(Original post by Occitanie)
Lovely times in Portland!

I'm usually one of the first to clobber those misusing the term terrorist but to be frank i agree with the chap in the video calling this domestic terrorism now. Using a destructive device, cementing the door shut ... these arent protesters they're a bunch of violent terrorists.
0
reply
Napp
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#75
Report 4 weeks ago
#75
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
It must be terrible getting into a situation with a black suspect who could be violent, knowing that if he were dangerous you could die, and if you stop him, your life could be ruined by the mob anyway..

Sure its easy to say that there is always a better way, but as someone whose never had my life threatened or been in that sort of crazy enviroment, I don't want to judge their actions too harshly.

Sky news are now reporting that the police force are claiming the officers had knowledge that he had a knife(because blake told them) and then found one in his car in the door he was going in, and that he had already resisted arrest, and tasering him didn't work. If that is true, and its not just the force trying to cover their backs, then I really feel for the cop because in my mind, he made the right decision.

The intersting thing about the hero stuff though is that hes not dead. Its much easier to elevate a dead person, but there should be some real moral questions about what happens next with this guy. Are the progressive left going to go around chanting the name of a domestic and sexual abuser? Even if his current situation wasn't fair/justified.

This case is certainly far less black and white then the last one. This time around its potentially a person who was resisting arrest, and had a weapon (if true)... but people are already lumping the two cases together as if there is no nuance or difference between them.

(its also very easy for most posters in the UK to not consider how terrifying it must be to live in a nation where everyone could be armed with a gun. Someone resisting arrest reaching into a car in the UK, and the worst its likely to be is a knife.. but in america, who knows)
This. Perfectly put.
People here just seem utterly unable to grasp the nuance and keep comparing it to their local bobby on the beat kind of situation depsite the situations being about as similar as a pop tart and a jet engine.
0
reply
Occitanie
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#76
Report 4 weeks ago
#76
(Original post by Napp)
I'm usually one of the first to clobber those misusing the term terrorist but to be frank i agree with the chap in the video calling this domestic terrorism now. Using a destructive device, cementing the door shut ... these arent protesters they're a bunch of violent terrorists.
Yeah... and I think people are starting to see what's going on, in Portland particularly.

I've said this plenty of times before, AntiFa is the enemy, not peaceful BLM demonstrators invoking their 2nd Amendment rights. 92 consecutive nights of brutal violence, looting, damage of federal buildings and private businesses have ALL been at the hands of a far-left, anarchist mob, yet somehow those trying to protect the city are 'Stormtroopers'. Go **** yourselves.

"But doesn't AntiFa mean, antifascist?" Yeah, it does, but that's not what they stand for as an organisation.

I suppose you might even agree with Trump wanting them to listed as terrorists.
Last edited by Occitanie; 4 weeks ago
0
reply
Napp
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#77
Report 4 weeks ago
#77
(Original post by Occitanie)
Yeah... and I think people are starting to see what's going on, in Portland particularly.

I've said this plenty of times before, AntiFa is the enemy, not peaceful BLM demonstrators invoking their 2nd Amendment rights.

"But doesn't AntiFa mean, antifascist?" Yeah, it does, but that's not what they stand for as an organisation.
Interesting on this though! Yet i still see all of these dolts (granted on social media) doing their thoughts and prayers stuff for them, demanding people donate to this "just" cause etc. it boggles the mind when all you have to do is turn on the 6 oclock news to see the videos of these "modern civil rights protesters" running around looting, killing, raping, burning and generally behaving like terrorists.

Its a pity as they simply drag the reputation of those genuinely fighting for social equity into the gutter with them. Not to mention the ones deliberately using them as cover to do it, despicable.
0
reply
SHallowvale
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#78
Report 4 weeks ago
#78
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
It must be terrible getting into a situation with a black suspect who could be violent, knowing that if he were dangerous you could die, and if you stop him, your life could be ruined by the mob anyway..

Sure its easy to say that there is always a better way, but as someone whose never had my life threatened or been in that sort of crazy enviroment, I don't want to judge their actions too harshly.
The difference between you and a police officer is that a police officer is meant to be trained to deal with these situations.

Unless you believe that it's the job of an officer to shoot at the first sign of trouble, the police involved should be rightfully condemned.

'It must be terrible getting into a situation where you have the power to stop something potentially dangerous from happening but instead choose to escalate the situation and paralyse a man who had not tried to attack you'. Yeah, must be real terrible. 😂😂😂
2
reply
Underscore__
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#79
Report 4 weeks ago
#79
(Original post by iNeed2p)
Ok budd. Just wait while you hear another one get shot for no absolute reason. It will keep going on and on. Want black people to fix this issue? it's simple, let a lot of educated black minority be in the power and then apply the Malcom X number 1 rule which is, Black people have to sit down and accept themselves first before any one else does. Because i can tell you a lot of them are uncle tom and the rest are killing each other with guns, knives and drugs.
You’re still rambling
0
reply
Occitanie
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#80
Report 4 weeks ago
#80
(Original post by Napp)
Interesting on this though! Yet i still see all of these dolts (granted on social media) doing their thoughts and prayers stuff for them, demanding people donate to this "just" cause etc. it boggles the mind when all you have to do is turn on the 6 oclock news to see the videos of these "modern civil rights protesters" running around looting, killing, raping, burning and generally behaving like terrorists.

Its a pity as they simply drag the reputation of those genuinely fighting for social equity into the gutter with them. Not to mention the ones deliberately using them as cover to do it, despicable.
Granted the coverage of the violence is on the news, you don't hear much about the group causing the actual violence. You often "largely peaceful protests", which is certainly true, but that small group of insurgents that isn't being reported and exposed is being allowed to fester across the US.

Many of those being arrested in Portland for violence are being released soon after, and there is substantial evidence of this.

I don't think it's a pity, I think it's an embarrassment. We should be doing absolutely everything we possibly can to promote peaceful demonstrations and peaceful discourse to further emphasise the fight against racial tensions and racial inequality, but then you see elected politicians turn a blind eye on violent extremism...

The divisiveness is the US right now is off the charts the like of which none of us has ever seen in our lifetime. (assuming you're a millennial like me)
1
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Are you confident you could find support for your mental health if you needed it in COVID-19?

Yes (59)
20.92%
No (223)
79.08%

Watched Threads

View All