Black man in Wisconsin remains in hospital after being shot by the police.

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#81
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
Another case of **** police training, If it doesn't involve a gun and cuffs they really don't know what to do.
(Original post by SHallowvale)
The difference between you and a police officer is that a police officer is meant to be trained to deal with these situations.

Unless you believe that it's the job of an officer to shoot at the first sign of trouble, the police involved should be rightfully condemned.

'It must be terrible getting into a situation where you have the power to stop something potentially dangerous from happening but instead choose to escalate the situation and paralyse a man who had not tried to attack you'. Yeah, must be real terrible. 😂😂😂
Yes, US police do seem to be in need of better training, among other things such as oversight.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...ritain/612820/

Key to that challenge is revamping the training for prospective officers. Here, too, the U.S. can look to other countries for inspiration. In Germany, for example, police recruits are required to spend two and a half to four years in basic training to become an officer, with the option to pursue the equivalent of a bachelor’s or master’s degree in policing. Basic training in the U.S., by comparison, can take as little as 21 weeks (or 33.5 weeks, with field training). The less time recruits have to train, the less time is afforded for guidance on crisis intervention or de-escalation. “If you only have 21 weeks of classroom training, naturally you’re going to emphasize survival,” Paul Hirschfield, an associate sociology and criminal-justice professor at Rutgers University, told me.

Joachim Kersten, a senior research professor of criminology at the German Police University, told me that police training in Germany covers everything from how to respond to cases of domestic violence to how to disarm someone with a lethal weapon. In the latter case, he said, “the emphasis is not on using weapons or shooting.” Rather, trainees are encouraged to de-escalate, resorting to lethal force only when absolutely necessary.

This level of restraint isn’t unique to Germany—it’s a Europe-wide standard. In some European countries, the rules are stricter still: Police in Finland and Norway, for example, require that officers seek permission before shooting anyone, where possible. In Spain, police must provide verbal cautions and warning shots before resorting to deadly force. Even in circumstances where weapons aren’t used, police officers in Europe tend to be more restricted in what they can do. Chokeholds of the kind used to immobilize, and ultimately kill, Floyd are forbidden in much of Europe. Some parts of the U.S., including Minneapolis, California, and New York, have since banned chokeholds and other similar restraints as well.

“If you change the rules of engagement,” Hirschfield said, “if you make it more difficult to use deadly force, legally and through training, then police departments need to adapt” their tactics.

Part of the reason that police in Europe are loath to use lethal force is because in most scenarios, they don’t have to. Compared with the U.S., which claims 40 percent of the world’s firearms, gun ownership in most European countries is relatively rare. In Germany, “officers, with few exceptions in big cities, don’t have to expect that they will meet people who will shoot at them,” Kersten said. Indeed, a number of police officers in countries such as Britain, Ireland, and Norway aren’t armed at all.

This is perhaps why police-related deaths tend to be more prevalent in the U.S. than in many of its peer nations. Last year, the U.S. recorded more than 1,000 killings by law enforcement, dwarfing the number of police-related deaths in Canada, with 36 in 2017; Germany, with 14 that year; and England and Wales, with three in 2018. (Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own police forces.) “There is a massive difference in the level of harm that police do in carrying out their duties in a society that, to begin with, has far more guns than Britain could ever imagine,” Lawrence Sherman, a director of Cambridge University’s Centre for Evidence-Based Policing, told me. “It creates a very different starting point.”
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#82
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(Original post by Napp)
Have you actually seen the video from this? The kid was being swarmed by armed rioters..

Bigger point though, how have you attributed "racism" to this? Or is it simply the belief that the plods should have shot him as well?
He was swarmed *after* the public pointed it out.

No I’m not attributing racism to this, the person i was replying to brought in race when they mentioned something silly about white ppl. As i said in my comment I didn’t actually see this situation much to do with race than police stupidity. And yes, i would think it more sensible to shoot a man armed with a military grade weapon after he’s murdered 2 ppl and is still armed than paralysing a man with 7 shots on the *possibility* of him having a weapon lol.
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Napp
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(Original post by nathan_nacu)
He was swarmed *after* the public pointed it out.

No I’m not attributing racism to this, the person i was replying to brought in race when they mentioned something silly about white ppl. As i said in my comment I didn’t actually see this situation much to do with race than police stupidity. And yes, i would think it more sensible to shoot a man armed with a military grade weapon after he’s murdered 2 ppl and is still armed than paralysing a man with 7 shots on the *possibility* of him having a weapon lol.
before or after seems besides the point (as i cant comment on allegations he killed someone earlier) simply from the video this looks clearly a case of self defence against armed rioters trying to kill him.
Either way, people play stupid games they get stupid prizes. Like that prat who pointed a gun through a soliders car window and got shot.
Ah gotcha, my mistake.
Are we talking about the two he shot in the video? As i said that seems pretty clear self defence considering the people coming for him when he was on the ground were armed..
Maybe so but thats a very different situation imo. Although the fact he was a child molesting felon with priors for armed crimes is making me suspicious as to the story on the matter. At any rate, i still wouldnt say that was overly racist - if a white man dived into a car hed likely be shot as well, as has happened many times. But hey, Americas toxic these days and everyone will read what they want into the situation.
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JWatch
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(Original post by nathan_nacu)
I think a lot of white ppl miss the point when discussing this issue. If there is a white man in this situation we are fighting for you too because NOBODY deserves this! In my posts i have almost exclusively ignored race because at this point i just see the police as a whole issue themselves not just racism. This post is not sensible as it a tu quoque fallacy. So because a white man got shot too we should all be happy and Shutup? No. We fight regardless.

Oh and guess what? The VERY SAME Wisconsin police SAW a white man MURDER two people and he walked away. He wore his gun proudly on his neck afterwards and the police ignored him. The police shoot and paralyse a man on suspicion of a weapon but then let someone with an actual weapon who just murdered walk freely? Even cared for him, I wonder why......

Attachment 947920

Attachment 947922

JWatch what do u think of this ?
If the situation did happen exactly as described in those tweets then it's unacceptable. I suspect there may be quite a bit of contextual information being left out though.
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(Original post by Napp)
before or after seems besides the point (as i cant comment on allegations he killed someone earlier) simply from the video this looks clearly a case of self defence against armed rioters trying to kill him.
Either way, people play stupid games they get stupid prizes. Like that prat who pointed a gun through a soliders car window and got shot.
Ah gotcha, my mistake.
Are we talking about the two he shot in the video? As i said that seems pretty clear self defence considering the people coming for him when he was on the ground were armed..
Maybe so but thats a very different situation imo. Although the fact he was a child molesting felon with priors for armed crimes is making me suspicious as to the story on the matter. At any rate, i still wouldnt say that was overly racist - if a white man dived into a car hed likely be shot as well, as has happened many times. But hey, Americas toxic these days and everyone will read what they want into the situation.
We were nicking someone a few weeks ago who took a swing at one of us and was quickly put on the ground. Afterwards he genuinely seemed to think we were in the wrong for upping our use of force. You see lots of people on twitter post what they say is evidence of police brutality, but on watching the video it's a perfectly justified use of force they have had to use because the suspect is resisting. It's like people don't understand their actions have consequences. They get this strange idea that they can chose not to be searched or arrested if they don't want, and that somehow justifies assaulting emergency workers and then crying foul when we escalate things to get that person under control. Worrying.
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Napp
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(Original post by JWatch)
We were nicking someone a few weeks ago who took a swing at one of us and was quickly put on the ground. Afterwards he genuinely seemed to think we were in the wrong for upping our use of force. You see lots of people on twitter post what they say is evidence of police brutality, but on watching the video it's a perfectly justified use of force they have had to use because the suspect is resisting. It's like people don't understand their actions have consequences. They get this strange idea that they can chose not to be searched or arrested if they don't want, and that somehow justifies assaulting emergency workers and then crying foul when we escalate things to get that person under control. Worrying.
Its this weird social swing where everyone thinks theyre above the law and their actions dont have consequences, disgraceful behaviour not least as its ruining perfectly respectable peoples lives with these vexatious legal complaints that have no merit - especially when they toss the R bomb in for no reason other than a quick pay day.
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(Original post by Napp)
Its this weird social swing where everyone thinks theyre above the law and their actions dont have consequences, disgraceful behaviour not least as its ruining perfectly respectable peoples lives with these vexatious legal complaints that have no merit - especially when they toss the R bomb in for no reason other than a quick pay day.
I think it’s largely down to a lack of an authority figure growing up, and a total disregard of it when adult.
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(Original post by Napp)
Its this weird social swing where everyone thinks theyre above the law and their actions dont have consequences, disgraceful behaviour not least as its ruining perfectly respectable peoples lives with these vexatious legal complaints that have no merit - especially when they toss the R bomb in for no reason other than a quick pay day.
Hm, i think the issue is we don’t think we’re above the law, we just find it weird how the police can make as many mistakes and just get ‘administrative leave’ and not be prosecuted (only 1% of police brutalities lead to conviction). Why are the police allowed to tackle me or harm me on suspicion of something I didn’t do based on a whim? but if i punch a policeman as JWatch said I would have force used on me? It’s about the unfairness. This is why I don’t like the idea of cops. Some might say ‘well what about other professions that control ur future like lawyers’ and i would say it takes 6-8 years post-18 to become a qualified lawyer and requires rigorous academic training which creates trust which still isn’t 100%. I don’t think it’s an authority figure problem as Occitaine stated, nobody has a problem with authority but authorities should be fair and held to the same standards without bias. That is clearly not the case with cops.
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(Original post by Occitanie)
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As said, the situation could have been easily de escalated, they could’ve tackled him before he got to his car rather than holding his shirt like a jetski. Also, a taser could’ve been used, or even one gunshot. Doesn’t justify being shot 7 times and paralysed. Also, Texas sharpshooter fallacy, the police didn’t know this at the time
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
The difference between you and a police officer is that a police officer is meant to be trained to deal with these situations.

Unless you believe that it's the job of an officer to shoot at the first sign of trouble, the police involved should be rightfully condemned.

'It must be terrible getting into a situation where you have the power to stop something potentially dangerous from happening but instead choose to escalate the situation and paralyse a man who had not tried to attack you'. Yeah, must be real terrible. 😂😂😂
As far as I'm aware - and I could be wrong as its not my country - but isn't the training in the USA that if someone reaches for a weapon (or you suspect they do) police are trained to shoot?

Either way as many years of military history shows, its very very hard to train people for life or death situations, some can handle it but most can't, no matter how many times they role play it or read about it.

+ In an environment where guns are everywhere, waiting to be attacked before taking action is waiting to die.
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(Original post by nathan_nacu)
As said, the situation could have been easily de escalated, they could’ve tackled him before he got to his car rather than holding his shirt like a jetski. Also, a taser could’ve been used, or even one gunshot. Doesn’t justify being shot 7 times and paralysed. Also, Texas sharpshooter fallacy, the police didn’t know this at the time
The report from the police says:

1 - they did taser him, and it failed to stop him
2 - they did know of his record, and they knew he had a knife before the shooting

Do you actually read the details? or are you just presuming things here?

Its fine to be skeptical of the polices own report (I am), but at the moment that's what we have.
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
The report from the police says:

1 - they did taser him, and it failed to stop him
2 - they did know of his record, and they knew he had a knife before the shooting

Do you actually read the details? or are you just presuming things here?

Its fine to be skeptical of the polices own report (I am), but at the moment that's what we have.
These details were not available at the time we found out about the incident pls don’t patronise me, i am as u said skeptical about the report but assuming it’s true. As i have previously said, all the aforementioned factors do not justify 7 shots + paralysis in front if his children. And I don’t recall seeing a taser in the video, he could have been tackled etc.
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
The report from the police says:

1 - they did taser him, and it failed to stop him
2 - they did know of his record, and they knew he had a knife before the shooting

Do you actually read the details? or are you just presuming things here?

Its fine to be skeptical of the polices own report (I am), but at the moment that's what we have.
Could have used batons long before he walked around the vehicle, the UK police seem to do a pretty good job with a heavy stick.
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
Could have used batons long before he walked around the vehicle, the UK police seem to do a pretty good job with a heavy stick.
The UK police don't have to deal with a country that has more guns than people though..

I'm sure the situation could have been handled better at many occasions - the point I'm trying to make on this thread isn't that he was a wonderful cop who acted perfectly at all times. But at the very moment when he goes into the car? I'm not sure that was the moment he made his mistake.
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
The UK police don't have to deal with a country that has more guns than people though..

I'm sure the situation could have been handled better at many occasions - the point I'm trying to make on this thread isn't that he was a wonderful cop who acted perfectly at all times. But at the very moment when he goes into the car? I'm not sure that was the moment he made his mistake.
Perfect? No need to be perfect, just reasonable will do.
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(Original post by nathan_nacu)
Hm, i think the issue is we don’t think we’re above the law, we just find it weird how the police can make as many mistakes and just get ‘administrative leave’ and not be prosecuted (only 1% of police brutalities lead to conviction). Why are the police allowed to tackle me or harm me on suspicion of something I didn’t do based on a whim? but if i punch a policeman as JWatch said I would have force used on me? It’s about the unfairness. This is why I don’t like the idea of cops. Some might say ‘well what about other professions that control ur future like lawyers’ and i would say it takes 6-8 years post-18 to become a qualified lawyer and requires rigorous academic training which creates trust which still isn’t 100%. I don’t think it’s an authority figure problem as Occitaine stated, nobody has a problem with authority but authorities should be fair and held to the same standards without bias. That is clearly not the case with cops.
The difference is that our use of force is usually justified. If I'm arresting someone and they resist, I am entitled to use force against them in order to effect the arrest. They are not entitled to punch me, or resist the arrest, they have no right to do so and as such any force they use against me is unlawful. Do you not see that difference?

Was the use of force in Wisconsin reasonable? I've already said I don't think it was, but I am basing this only on what I have seen. I do think the officers deserve a chance to tell their side of the story, as I think everyone accused of a crime should be allowed that chance.
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(Original post by nathan_nacu)
As said, the situation could have been easily de escalated, they could’ve tackled him before he got to his car rather than holding his shirt like a jetski. Also, a taser could’ve been used, or even one gunshot. Doesn’t justify being shot 7 times and paralysed. Also, Texas sharpshooter fallacy, the police didn’t know this at the time
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
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(Original post by Occitanie)
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
Going to have to somewhat agree here. If the Wisconsin man was trying to potentially reach for a weapon then the LEAST that could be done could have been to grab his shirt (which is what the police/cops did). Either way I don't think that he should have been shot 7 times.
Last edited by 1st superstar; 4 weeks ago
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(Original post by nathan_nacu)
All. One. Big. Anecdotal. Fallacy
You can say that if you want because you don't like it, but real life isn't a low TTK video game, a bullet grazing your pinky doesn't instantly kill you, nor do a lot of body or head shots even if upper torso and head are far more likely to cause a lethal injury.

Tyrone Lee is another one shot multiple times trying to rob a store, walked away from it quite literally, he took himself to the hospital where he was put in an induced coma because of being in a critical condition. Of course you will say that's anecdotal too.

Do your own research (of course you won't, that would challenge your beliefs) and you will be able to find countless examples of it taking multiple shots to incapacitate people, even when they are lethal shots. Mag dumps happen for a reason: to ensure the threat is neutralised (which doesn't necessarily mean dead)
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