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Do you have faith in the Oxbridge Admissions Process
Oxford offers have been received by a large proportion of candidates now, and obviously congratulations are extended to those holding offers. However, is it me, or does the whole process seem to be not as successful in identifying the best as it may be hoped?
When I started considering an application to Oxbridge, I truly believed that I was dealing with institutions which wanted to get the best students. I passionately believed them when they said that whichever college I applied to, if I was good enough I would be found- even if my first choice college couldn't offer me a place. I believed them when they said every aspect of my application would be carefully considered, and that they would place everything I had achieved into its rightful context. Even more than that, I believed that the objective of interviews was to provide a fair playing field for all, and that interviewers would look past rehearsed responses and find the real you.
I believed all this, and became caught up in the excitement of Oxbridge. I dreamed of Ivory Towers and places were excellence was celebrated and academic achievement pushed and propelled to higher levels.
Yet, I now feel completely conned. I know my decision from Cam [rejection], but I feel I will never be able to gain closure from it because my interview was so appallingly set up- there was no scope for me to show my ability to construct an argument. Worse, I have found out from various sources, that many candidates knew exactly what to expect through ex-pupils of their school currently at the college. This situation has been commonly identified by many I have spoke to.
So my questions to the people ofTSR, are:
Does Oxbridge identify the best students?
Is the admissions process fair?
Do you feel that you have been treated fairly by Oxford/Cambridge?
When I started considering an application to Oxbridge, I truly believed that I was dealing with institutions which wanted to get the best students. I passionately believed them when they said that whichever college I applied to, if I was good enough I would be found- even if my first choice college couldn't offer me a place. I believed them when they said every aspect of my application would be carefully considered, and that they would place everything I had achieved into its rightful context. Even more than that, I believed that the objective of interviews was to provide a fair playing field for all, and that interviewers would look past rehearsed responses and find the real you.
I believed all this, and became caught up in the excitement of Oxbridge. I dreamed of Ivory Towers and places were excellence was celebrated and academic achievement pushed and propelled to higher levels.
Yet, I now feel completely conned. I know my decision from Cam [rejection], but I feel I will never be able to gain closure from it because my interview was so appallingly set up- there was no scope for me to show my ability to construct an argument. Worse, I have found out from various sources, that many candidates knew exactly what to expect through ex-pupils of their school currently at the college. This situation has been commonly identified by many I have spoke to.
So my questions to the people ofTSR, are:
Does Oxbridge identify the best students?
Is the admissions process fair?
Do you feel that you have been treated fairly by Oxford/Cambridge?
Scroll to see replies
if you're accepted it's all good, if not it's all bad. you'd struggle to get a fair reflection at the present time; people would proabble be heavily influenced by where they'll be studying in october.
There's loads of stuff to deal with here, but I'm just going to pick on one point:
"Worse, I have found out from various sources, that many candidates knew exactly what to expect through ex-pupils of their school currently at the college."
The problem with what you've written here is use of "ex-pupils of their school". I'm not sure why you're picking on school particularly. Specifically: I do PPE at Hertford. If anyone here had applied for PPE at Hertford, I could have told you what the tutors were like. I could have told you what I was asked. I could have told you what's unusual about Hertford PPEists specifically. This isn't because of some old boys' network: it's just because I happen to go here. Similarly, I could have given this information to anyone at my school.
Of course current students at a college can pass on information about their tutors. What did you expect?
I'm surprised that your interview was appallingly set up, though. It sounds unusual.
"Worse, I have found out from various sources, that many candidates knew exactly what to expect through ex-pupils of their school currently at the college."
The problem with what you've written here is use of "ex-pupils of their school". I'm not sure why you're picking on school particularly. Specifically: I do PPE at Hertford. If anyone here had applied for PPE at Hertford, I could have told you what the tutors were like. I could have told you what I was asked. I could have told you what's unusual about Hertford PPEists specifically. This isn't because of some old boys' network: it's just because I happen to go here. Similarly, I could have given this information to anyone at my school.
Of course current students at a college can pass on information about their tutors. What did you expect?
I'm surprised that your interview was appallingly set up, though. It sounds unusual.
Maybe it's not optimal, but it's certainly loads better than the process here in America. Here it's just based on an application, and is more concerned with what you do outside of school than in. I feel significantly better about Oxford's decision, even though I was rejected. There was a little injustice in that I was totally unfamiliar with the process and had to figure everything out on my own as I went along, but I think the decisions are made for much better reasons.
the fact that schools try to leach off their present oxonians and tabs is hardly shocking news. it's merely common sense - as a headmaster, i would try to get as much inside information as possible from all sources availiable; using those you've been successful to help the next generation is common practice at many school, whether they be state or independant.
certainly i have no problem with that, and when my school asked me about my experience, i had no problem with commenting.
certainly i have no problem with that, and when my school asked me about my experience, i had no problem with commenting.
Firstly, do you actually know you have been rejected - isn't it a little early?
I believe that on the whole the admissions teams are genuinely after those who will be the best students, however there are instances when the process doesn't work out that way. I have been shocked at the ways that some have employed to gain advantage in admissions, but this is rare.
I am very surprised to hear that your interview was poorly set up, especially since it was Downing for Law but there are always going to be some who don't find the style favourable. Perhaps they have got it wrong this year - I have a friend who applied there who isn't particularly bright who thought the interview was right up his street, just what he would have wished for.
I feel that I have been treated more than fairly by Oxford, and they took everything into account and understood that a short interview can easily not turn out well. The good thing about my course is that they lots of opportunities were available to shine - essays, written test as well as UCAS and interviews - and this makes the whole thing much more rigourous.
I believe that on the whole the admissions teams are genuinely after those who will be the best students, however there are instances when the process doesn't work out that way. I have been shocked at the ways that some have employed to gain advantage in admissions, but this is rare.
I am very surprised to hear that your interview was poorly set up, especially since it was Downing for Law but there are always going to be some who don't find the style favourable. Perhaps they have got it wrong this year - I have a friend who applied there who isn't particularly bright who thought the interview was right up his street, just what he would have wished for.
I feel that I have been treated more than fairly by Oxford, and they took everything into account and understood that a short interview can easily not turn out well. The good thing about my course is that they lots of opportunities were available to shine - essays, written test as well as UCAS and interviews - and this makes the whole thing much more rigourous.
granddad_bob
if you're accepted it's all good, if not it's all bad. you'd struggle to get a fair reflection at the present time; people would proabble be heavily influenced by where they'll be studying in october.
couldn't agree more.
& my views are no doubt biased..
but, if you seriously feel you didn't truly get a chance to show yourself at your best.. consider taking a year out & reapplying? plenty of opportunities with a gap year. plus how lovely an unconditional would be..
i know people who've been successful after trying a different college, or even different uni & slightly different subject.
on the otherhand, i know people who've been unsuccessful twice, but at least they felt they have given it their best shot.
and i think people jump on the back of the admissions process too quickly when things don't go as planned. everyone accept that it isn't perfect, and no doubt a few deserving applicants slip through the net; but the average ability of those accepted is unquestionable higher than those who are rejected, which suggest they must be doing something right.
there are many reasons for not recieving an offer, but 9 out of 10 of those, in my experience, are just fancy ways for saying an applicant wasn't good enough when it mattered.
there are many reasons for not recieving an offer, but 9 out of 10 of those, in my experience, are just fancy ways for saying an applicant wasn't good enough when it mattered.
out of interest, and being in the access business, if anyone has any serious complaint about aspect of their interview experience, i would greatly appreciate it if they PM'd me or left a message on this thread outlining what their complaint is. the best (and easiest) way for us as a university to improve in terms of access and admissions is if we get direct feedback from applicants involved. 
also i can sell the information on to fee-paying companies and make a killing. (only joking... ish)
also i can sell the information on to fee-paying companies and make a killing. (only joking... ish)
When Oxford accept hundreds each year who go on to get 2.2s, 3rd, or crack under the pressure, and reject hundreds who go on to get very high 1sts at other leading unis, the system is obviously far from perfect.
Nonetheless, for 'elite' universities it is one of the fairest systems in the world. At the leading American universities, wealth and contacts can be very influential, whereas at Oxford the vast vast majority get in solely on meritocracy.
I'd have thought you for one would know that it's not all about just grades. GCSE and AS grades, which rely heavily on memorising and regurgitating, aren't exactly a good indicator of academic potential. And as much as people want to disagree with me, it's usually not solely down to academic potential either, as otherwise Oxford would be full of geeks who do nothing but study (I'm not saying people with highest academic potential are all geeks, but tutors like to take on interesting people, who they think will be great in tutorials for example, even if they're less likely to strive for a 1st).
Tutor subjectivity is inevitable, your physical appearance may matter (not naming names, a tutor told me last week how they were finding it impossible to be 100% transparent), etc, but realistically this is as transparent as you're going to get.
Nonetheless, for 'elite' universities it is one of the fairest systems in the world. At the leading American universities, wealth and contacts can be very influential, whereas at Oxford the vast vast majority get in solely on meritocracy.
Nima
I still don't understand the logic in people with straight A*'s at GCSE and straight A's at A-Level getting rejected, but people with ABCC at AS get accepted.
I'd have thought you for one would know that it's not all about just grades. GCSE and AS grades, which rely heavily on memorising and regurgitating, aren't exactly a good indicator of academic potential. And as much as people want to disagree with me, it's usually not solely down to academic potential either, as otherwise Oxford would be full of geeks who do nothing but study (I'm not saying people with highest academic potential are all geeks, but tutors like to take on interesting people, who they think will be great in tutorials for example, even if they're less likely to strive for a 1st).
Tutor subjectivity is inevitable, your physical appearance may matter (not naming names, a tutor told me last week how they were finding it impossible to be 100% transparent), etc, but realistically this is as transparent as you're going to get.
While I firmly believe there is an important element of academic ability involved in the process, it still seems somewhat of a lottery. A LOTTERY OF EMOTION.
Jools
When Oxford accept hundreds each year who go on to get 2.2s, 3rd, or crack under the pressure, and reject hundreds who go on to get very high 1sts at other leading unis, the system is obviously far from perfect.
1. most people fail due to personal reason not obvious at interview; you can't blame the admissions tutor for the death of someone's mother or them having to go on prozac. that happens everywhere, it's uncontrolable.
2. saying 100 fail (or get thirds and passes), and considering 3000 are given offers, a 97% strike rate is fairly outstanding in my, or any other universities books.
though that's not to say everythings perfect, far from it.
granddad_bob
1. most people fail due to personal reason not obvious at interview; you can't blame the admissions tutor for the death of someone's mother or them having to go on prozac. that happens everywhere, it's uncontrolable.
Most people quit Oxford because they can't handle the pressure of the workload - about 15% of medics drop out for this reason.
granddad_bob
2. saying 100 fail (or get thirds and passes), and considering 3000 are given offers, a 97% strike rate is fairly outstanding in my, or any other universities books.
I said hundreds, not 100. More like an 80% strike rate.
I haven't received my decision yet, but I think, like PiranhaEx, that the Oxbridge, at least Oxford, is far better than our American system. You can buy places at schools here with money, prestige, and legacy--legacy being having family members who attend, have attended, or work/worked at the university. Legacy is a load of . It only shows that you come from educated families, and in many cases that you're wealthy (your parents and grandparents and cousins and uncles could afford to go to Yale, thus you have an edge).
On the opposite end, affirmative action--a program which attempts to aid minorities who may have been disadvantaged during their lower education experience (I'm not saying I'm opposed to it, just that it is viewed as flawed by many)--can weed out very qualified individuals simply because they're not black females, or any other combination of minority. I have several friends who have either been deferred or rejected from Yale and MIT. They were all extremely well qualified--top of the class, loads of extracurriculars (very important in the American admissions process), and high marks on standardized tests--but rejected.
I have seen none of this in the UK's system, including in Oxford's. It's very possible that as an outsider I simply have not been exposed to it yet. Are there elements of these things present in the British admissions system?
. It only shows that you come from educated families, and in many cases that you're wealthy (your parents and grandparents and cousins and uncles could afford to go to Yale, thus you have an edge).On the opposite end, affirmative action--a program which attempts to aid minorities who may have been disadvantaged during their lower education experience (I'm not saying I'm opposed to it, just that it is viewed as flawed by many)--can weed out very qualified individuals simply because they're not black females, or any other combination of minority. I have several friends who have either been deferred or rejected from Yale and MIT. They were all extremely well qualified--top of the class, loads of extracurriculars (very important in the American admissions process), and high marks on standardized tests--but rejected.
I have seen none of this in the UK's system, including in Oxford's. It's very possible that as an outsider I simply have not been exposed to it yet. Are there elements of these things present in the British admissions system?
tomcoolinguk
Does Oxbridge identify the best students?
Is the admissions process fair?
Do you feel that you have been treated fairly by Oxford/Cambridge?
Does Oxbridge identify the best students?
Is the admissions process fair?
Do you feel that you have been treated fairly by Oxford/Cambridge?
oh this thread sounds very original ....
i am not going to write much more, simply because I wish not to..... good luck with ur life though, seriously..
One element of their system has been overlooked in this thread so far - those people who get offers and then do not make them. A friend of mine had offer AAA but got AAB in Scottish Advanced Highers and was then rejected. They were not willing to take into consideration any of the factors which contributed to her grades.
They say they want more Scottish applicants and more State school applicants etc but if they really want them they should consider more carefully the offers they give. In the case i mentioned before, the subject where she got a B was so badly taught that the top-scoring(100%) candidate from the year before even dropped it! (Not to mention that AHs and A-levels are very different, some being easier and some more difficult which they also don't bother to research)
I know you might say, "well if u get an Oxbridge offer you should have the potential to achieve the grades if you put ur mind to it". But why should some pupils have to work so much harder to achieve the same offers??
It just seems to me that "encouraging Scottish students to apply" more equates to gettting them to waste £50 on a train fare.
They say they want more Scottish applicants and more State school applicants etc but if they really want them they should consider more carefully the offers they give. In the case i mentioned before, the subject where she got a B was so badly taught that the top-scoring(100%) candidate from the year before even dropped it! (Not to mention that AHs and A-levels are very different, some being easier and some more difficult which they also don't bother to research)
I know you might say, "well if u get an Oxbridge offer you should have the potential to achieve the grades if you put ur mind to it". But why should some pupils have to work so much harder to achieve the same offers??
It just seems to me that "encouraging Scottish students to apply" more equates to gettting them to waste £50 on a train fare.
poulanck
One element of their system has been overlooked in this thread so far - those people who get offers and then do not make them. A friend of mine had offer AAA but got AAB in Scottish Advanced Highers and was then rejected. They were not willing to take into consideration any of the factors which contributed to her grades.
They say they want more Scottish applicants and more State school applicants etc but if they really want them they should consider more carefully the offers they give. In the case i mentioned before, the subject where she got a B was so badly taught that the top-scoring(100%) candidate from the year before even dropped it! (Not to mention that AHs and A-levels are very different, some being easier and some more difficult which they also don't bother to research)
I know you might say, "well if u get an Oxbridge offer you should have the potential to achieve the grades if you put ur mind to it". But why should some pupils have to work so much harder to achieve the same offers??
It just seems to me that "encouraging Scottish students to apply" more equates to gettting them to waste £50 on a train fare.
They say they want more Scottish applicants and more State school applicants etc but if they really want them they should consider more carefully the offers they give. In the case i mentioned before, the subject where she got a B was so badly taught that the top-scoring(100%) candidate from the year before even dropped it! (Not to mention that AHs and A-levels are very different, some being easier and some more difficult which they also don't bother to research)
I know you might say, "well if u get an Oxbridge offer you should have the potential to achieve the grades if you put ur mind to it". But why should some pupils have to work so much harder to achieve the same offers??
It just seems to me that "encouraging Scottish students to apply" more equates to gettting them to waste £50 on a train fare.
I don't think that's entirely fair - the exact same thing happened to me (I got a B in geography because of terrible teaching at my (state) school) and I was allowed to take up my place anyway. It's swings and roundabouts - it all depends on how many other offerholders get their grades really. I'm not Scottish, but suggesting that has something to do with it seems a bit strange to be honest. The part about lower offers for state-school pupils is extremely tricky; I can see your point, but I don't think it will ever happen (and I don't know if it should, to be honest) because it would be incredibly hard to implement (how do you decide whether someone's significantly disadvantaged?) and also viewed as positive discrimination by a lot of people.
at least they give u an interview and u have the chance to prove yourself in some way, shape or form. at other unis, you may get a straight rejection with no reasons why, and for a lot of people this is more crushing, theres always more options other than oxbridge, but for those people who don't/can't apply to oxbridge, their choices are far more limited. we're very lucky on many levels
granted, it is frustrating having gone through the process and putting a lot of time and effort into it. but then we will do this with many things in our life, its part of the learning process.
just for the record, im not just saying this because im here and it turned out ok for me, i had these exact same thoughts this time last yr when i was waiting for a rejection.
granted, it is frustrating having gone through the process and putting a lot of time and effort into it. but then we will do this with many things in our life, its part of the learning process.
just for the record, im not just saying this because im here and it turned out ok for me, i had these exact same thoughts this time last yr when i was waiting for a rejection.
I got AABB at AS (declared), my friend got ABBC (declared), and one got AAAA including 300/300 in two subjects. We all got offers for same college/subject. In the 1st year exams, we were all within 1% of each other.
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