Can information about China's Covid-19 data be trusted?

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Napp
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#21
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#21
(Original post by galai)
Are you aware China has been managing the this pandemic better than the west and they have very little cases in comparison to the UK and US,
Define 'better'? It's somewhat easier for an autocratic dictatorship to lock down tens of millions (or hundreds of millions for that matter) of people by fiat than it is for a civilised country.

if anything the Chinese student should be scared of you transmitting the virus onto them.
That was the reason given for banning foreigners from entry.
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bingbong9214
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#22
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#22
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
Is it?

I mean.. they are hiding it really well if that's true.

I have family members and friends in around 20 Chinese cities who are all living happily and enjoying life right now.. Heck, I'm here, and I can go out and see what's going on. none of them know of any new cases or people to have even a friend of a friend of a friend who has had the virus in the last few months..

Compare that to the actual outbreak in China where we all knew people who had the virus, flat blocks in our area were closed off, loads of people were struggling, my friends who work in hospitals were reporting all sorts of problems and overcrowding.

But today? nothing...

This is the problem with these conspiracy theories - they work very well when your sat in a room in the UK and you have no connection to China. In those circumstances you can easily imagine that what's going on over there is so different to what you read on the news... but all you need to do is speak to people who are here in China, and you can find out the reality very quickly. The goverment here can't hide a pandemic, it simply isn't possible to hide an outbreak from the public, considering the public are the ones who come down with the virus. The idea that post-recovery, china is still struggling, is just a conspiracy. The reality is that its had isolated outbreaks that have been dealt with via the same strict measures that worked during the full outbreak back in feb/march.
I also have friends and family in China and they are saying the complete opposite. Its not a conspiracy that they are lying about their figures, it has literally been proven with evidence that they have lied quite badly. Its a shame that some people are so blinded by this and are in full support of the CCP regime. You can't trust a government that failed to first stop the pandemic and communicate with other countries about the effect of the pandemic and then eventually lie about their own cases.
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fallen_acorns
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#23
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#23
(Original post by bingbong9214)
I also have friends and family in China and they are saying the complete opposite. Its not a conspiracy that they are lying about their figures, it has literally been proven with evidence that they have lied quite badly. Its a shame that some people are so blinded by this and are in full support of the CCP regime. You can't trust a government that failed to first stop the pandemic and communicate with other countries about the effect of the pandemic and then eventually lie about their own cases.N
"I also have friends and family in China and they are saying the complete opposite"

No you don't. Please don't lie to try and win arguments online, it doesn't look good.

As for governments failing to stop the virus - if you hadn't noticed, 99% of governments around the world, with far more warning than China initially had, have all failed to stop the virus from spreading. Its not a particularly easy thing to do.
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Mojmeer
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#24
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Trusting numbers from China is just not very clever. Lets not forget that It is a brutal dictatorship. Every single "official" number, from every hospital has to be vetted and "reviewed" by local party official who's monthly bonus and career prospects depends on that number. They have no oversight, they cannot be questioned.

I am sorry, but you cannot compare it to data from the ONS.
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Mojmeer
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#25
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#25
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
to shorten my three posts that were moved:

- China isn't hiding a mass outbreak. This would be entirely impossible to do.
- China's numbers in the spring were about as reliable as most nations.. e.g. not that reliable
- China's numbers, as with most countries do map the tradgectory quite well though
- Its highly likely there were many times more cases than were reported at the height of the outbreak (again, like most countries)
- Today, China is virtually virus free, except for occasional localised lockdowns when new outbreaks arrive from abroad
- People here are getting on with life, and life is back to normal, near identical to how it was before, just with a few more masks around
I assume that you also believe the 0 infected from the North Korea? Right?
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bingbong9214
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#26
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#26
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
"I also have friends and family in China and they are saying the complete opposite"

No you don't. Please don't lie to try and win arguments online, it doesn't look good.

As for governments failing to stop the virus - if you hadn't noticed, 99% of governments around the world, with far more warning than China initially had, have all failed to stop the virus from spreading. Its not a particularly easy thing to do.
So Im apparently lying without you having any evidence... so the premise of your argument is that your personal anaecodal opinion is correct and others aren't. Now you're just sounding silly.
You know nothing about who I am where I'm from, because it is a different view to yours, Im supposedly wrong. I could say the same about your point so please stop lying and trying to denigrate others because you don't like it, not really a good thing to do..

Again, at the beginning of the outbreak, no one had any data on the virus. A doctor was completely ignored when he sent the message about how deadly the virus is. The virus could have been contained in China but it wasnf acted upon quickly and so thats why it spread. The root problem was Chinas attitude to the virus, since that was where it was originated from. Its a shams you haven't kept up with any current affairs during this period
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MagneticNorth
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Napp)
Define 'better'? It's somewhat easier for an autocratic dictatorship to lock down tens of millions (or hundreds of millions for that matter) of people by fiat than it is for a civilised country.


That was the reason given for banning foreigners from entry.
The Deep Knowledge Group has put together a list of safest Covid countries in the world based on objective metrics. The metrics don't just include the number of cases in that country, some of the countries with the highest deaths count were on top. It also takes into account factors like government efficiency, healthcare readiness and country vulnerability.

There was an article on Forbes referencing their study.
Name:  safest covid countries.jpg
Views: 5
Size:  47.4 KB

The top 3 countries won't come as a surprise to anyone. China came 7th.
The UK came 31st, scoring unsurprisingly low in the columns of quarantine efficiency, government efficiency and monitoring and detection.
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fallen_acorns
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#28
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#28
(Original post by Mojmeer)
I assume that you also believe the 0 infected from the North Korea? Right?
Of course not.. don't be silly.
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fallen_acorns
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#29
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#29
(Original post by bingbong9214)
So Im apparently lying without you having any evidence... so the premise of your argument is that your personal anaecodal opinion is correct and others aren't. Now you're just sounding silly.
You know nothing about who I am where I'm from, because it is a different view to yours, Im supposedly wrong. I could say the same about your point so please stop lying and trying to denigrate others because you don't like it, not really a good thing to do..

Again, at the beginning of the outbreak, no one had any data on the virus. A doctor was completely ignored when he sent the message about how deadly the virus is. The virus could have been contained in China but it wasnf acted upon quickly and so thats why it spread. The root problem was Chinas attitude to the virus, since that was where it was originated from. Its a shams you haven't kept up with any current affairs during this period
Imagine this...

Your sat in your room on the internet, and someone says to you "Oh yeah, all the buses in london are pink now". If you don't live in london, its hard to call them out, all you can do is google to check and that may not be entirely up to date. But imagien if you did live in london, and you walked past the buses everday. You would then be 100% happy to call out their blatent lies.

That's us.

I live in China, And have 5 years of posting history on this site talking about moving there, my life there, my family there, my work etc.

You are the one telling me that the buses are pink.

I am the one who is walking through major cities in China each day seeing what is actually happening and feeling 100% confident in calling you out your ********.

(unless your going to cliam that for the past 5 years I have been constructing an elaborate lie on this site, all in preperation for this moment.. run along)
Last edited by fallen_acorns; 3 weeks ago
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fallen_acorns
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#30
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#30
(Original post by bingbong9214)
Again, at the beginning of the outbreak, no one had any data on the virus. A doctor was completely ignored when he sent the message about how deadly the virus is. The virus could have been contained in China but it wasnf acted upon quickly and so thats why it spread. The root problem was Chinas attitude to the virus, since that was where it was originated from. Its a shams you haven't kept up with any current affairs during this period
Compare these two countries:

The UK - new about the virus for 2-3 months before it arrived. Knew the exact genetic code before it arrived, and had seen multiple examples of how other countries dealt with it. Had a couple of months to prepare hospitals, build up supplies, close borders, impliment quarentine and new laws etc. All before the virus arrived.

China - By the time the virus was identified it had already spread by the thousands.. by the time it was understood it was already in multiple cities - Every action after that is playing catch up.

Could they have done better? Obviously. But the vast majority of countries, with far more warning than China have, have failed to contain the virus within their boarders. Take Italy for example - agian, far more warning than China had.. And yet they failed to contain it within their borders, and they then became the origin for most of the spread within Europe.

The reality is that it was never going to be able to be contianed within China. We are simply to globalised, and too contected to be able to contain these things any more. The WHO estimates that a 1 month period between first detection and understanding the virus is normal for a pandemic. Within just 1 month, so many people travel, to so many places, unless the new policy is to lock down any country every time an unexplained illness occurs, there is no way to stop things becoming international.
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fallen_acorns
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#31
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Imagine the roles are flipped... and most of you living in the UK had to listen to a Spanish person tell you that your still in the middle of the crisis, and your still in full lockdown, schools aren't open, people are still dying by the thousand etc. etc. What ever the lie/conspiracy is..

You would be sat just laughing, thinking about how far away that is from the reality your living in your country.
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Mojmeer
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#32
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#32
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
Imagine this...

Your sat in your room on the internet, and someone says to you "Oh yeah, all the buses in london are pink now". If you don't live in london, its hard to call them out, all you can do is google to check and that may not be entirely up to date. But imagien if you did live in london, and you walked past the buses everday. You would then be 100% happy to call out their blatent lies.

That's us.

I live in China, And have 5 years of posting history on this site talking about moving there, my life there, my family there, my work etc.

You are the one telling me that the buses are pink.

I am the one who is walking through major cities in China each day seeing what is actually happening and feeling 100% confident in calling you out your ********.

(unless your going to cliam that for the past 5 years I have been constructing an elaborate lie on this site, all in preperation for this moment.. run along)
And I "believe you"
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Mojmeer
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#33
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#33
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
Imagine the roles are flipped... and most of you living in the UK had to listen to a Spanish person tell you that your still in the middle of the crisis, and your still in full lockdown, schools aren't open, people are still dying by the thousand etc. etc. What ever the lie/conspiracy is..

You would be sat just laughing, thinking about how far away that is from the reality your living in your country.
Neither Spain nor UK are Murderous dictatorships with ridiculous level of censorships.
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fallen_acorns
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Mojmeer)
And I "believe you"
check if you want - My life from Alevels to PHD is mapped on this site, with discussions on most big things Ive done, I have years of post history and consistancy backign up the fact that I live in China... You can probably go back 5 and a half years and find me first discussing going, and then talking about arriving etc.

Believe what ever you want. Joke about what ever you want - If you check, you'll know I'm right.
(Original post by Mojmeer)
Neither Spain nor UK are Murderous dictatorships with ridiculous level of censorships.
so?
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Mojmeer
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#35
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#35
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
check if you want - My life from Alevels to PHD is mapped on this site, with discussions on most big things Ive done, I have years of post history and consistancy backign up the fact that I live in China... You can probably go back 5 and a half years and find me first discussing going, and then talking about arriving etc.

Believe what ever you want. Joke about what ever you want - If you check, you'll know I'm right.

so?
Wow, now you got me, whole five years of posting random stuff, wow, that makes you the universal source of truth, right?
It's not possible that I might might be working with bunch of engineers that happen to be from China, right? There is no way that they told me that you are just a paid drone or Party wanna be, 50cent or junk or something like that.
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fallen_acorns
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Mojmeer)
Wow, now you got me, whole five years of posting random stuff, wow, that makes you the universal source of truth, right?
It's not possible that I might might be working with bunch of engineers that happen to be from China, right? There is no way that they told me that you are just a paid drone or Party wanna be, 50cent or junk or something like that.
Actually 13 years - that's a hell of a lot of groundwork by the CCP right there. I mean, to be fair - if that's the lengths they will go to to make a 'drone' then were all ****ed.

Documented evidence of a consistent story over many many years prior to the events in question > anecdotal evidence only mentioned when it suits your argument.

---

Do you know the problem with your conspiracy theory? (the idea that China is still suffering under the virus, and its all being covered up)

China isn't north korea.. its not some isolated nation, it has a huge huge population of immigrants, a massive population of Chinese people living abroad, a large number of companies with foreign offices/business here, and a whole host of foreign journalists here. Hiding something in NK? Pretty easy, no one from the outside gets in, no one gets out aside from a few defectors, the communication is entirely filtered etc.

Hiding a pandemic in China though? You would have to hide it from the millions of foreign nationals, from all the foreign companies, all the foreign press, and you'd have to stop all of the millions of Chinese families with members abroad from speaking. Its just not possible - hence why we know about so many of the things that China wants to keep secret but fails to do so. The Uighur situation is a great example of this - China would love more than anything to keep it secret.. and if it were in NK, they would be able to. But with such an internationally conected population, it just simply isn't possible and eventually it, as everything, got out.

Its a conspiracy theory... that's all.
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bingbong9214
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#37
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#37
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
Imagine this...

Your sat in your room on the internet, and someone says to you "Oh yeah, all the buses in london are pink now". If you don't live in london, its hard to call them out, all you can do is google to check and that may not be entirely up to date. But imagien if you did live in london, and you walked past the buses everday. You would then be 100% happy to call out their blatent lies.

That's us.

I live in China, And have 5 years of posting history on this site talking about moving there, my life there, my family there, my work etc.

You are the one telling me that the buses are pink.

I am the one who is walking through major cities in China each day seeing what is actually happening and feeling 100% confident in calling you out your ********.

(unless your going to cliam that for the past 5 years I have been constructing an elaborate lie on this site, all in preperation for this moment.. run along)
Right so again, it goes back to a personal anecdotes. You don't have to believe me if you don't and because you have a posting history on this particular website doesn't make you more believable. If I was on this website for 10 years would that have made my claims stronger than yours of course not. I think you have to realise that unless you know someone irl or have some evidence which proves what you are saying (Living in China, working there) a point from random kid online isn't necessarily believable. As I've said you know nothing about who I am where I'm from, I've already said I'm from China, born and brought up there and I know their system, your points are completely contradictory to family sources who have told me otherwise. Granted that being said, my views are anecodal and don't have to believed by anyone, just a point I was making. As well as that you do realise that China is a very large country, maybe in you're area the Virus has very little impact but from my area its the opposite.
Unfortunately the problem is, we can't trust the sources given by the Chinese because they have been falsified before, once the pandemic ends I believe we will find the real numbers associated with the Virus
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fallen_acorns
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#38
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#38
(Original post by bingbong9214)
Right so again, it goes back to a personal anecdotes. You don't have to believe me if you don't and because you have a posting history on this particular website doesn't make you more believable. If I was on this website for 10 years would that have made my claims stronger than yours of course not. I think you have to realise that unless you know someone irl or have some evidence which proves what you are saying (Living in China, working there) a point from random kid online isn't necessarily believable. As I've said you know nothing about who I am where I'm from, I've already said I'm from China, born and brought up there and I know their system, your points are completely contradictory to family sources who have told me otherwise. Granted that being said, my views are anecodal and don't have to believed by anyone, just a point I was making. As well as that you do realise that China is a very large country, maybe in you're area the Virus has very little impact but from my area its the opposite.
Unfortunately the problem is, we can't trust the sources given by the Chinese because they have been falsified before, once the pandemic ends I believe we will find the real numbers associated with the Virus
Documented evidence of a consistent story over many many years prior to the events in question > anecdotal evidence only mentioned when it suits your argument.

Whether you like it or not, the fact that I have proof of my story from before we were arguing, yet you only have words spoken afterwards, makes one side more believable.

---

To the actual substance, see my post to the other member above. How would China possibly keep this secret? With so many international connections, how could they ever stop all of the people from communicating? All it would take is one foreign worker, taking a few pictures on their phone, and then after flying back to their home country, giving to the press.. and there is your proof. Huge news story, plenty of cash for the worker, front page of every news paper tomorrow.

Yet it hasn't happened. So many millions of migrants, so many foreign journalists all over China, so many Chinese living abroad with family back in China (real family mind you...) who could expose it, and it hasn't happened?

China is a big place, but its more connected then ever. China can keep secrets, but a pandemic? No. I was in China when the pandemic started, no one can keep that a secret, it took over everyone lives, cities locked down, hospitals overwhelmed, appartment blocks closed off, people only allowed out once a day, everything shut etc. How could they hide that from millions? and how could they stop every one from proving anything to an outside source?

I don't expect you to believe the next bit, and that's fair enough, this is actually just anecdotal and there is no evidence to back this up - but I was in a Convid area of a Chinese hospital a little while ago. During my quarentine after arriving I needed extra tests. It was, thankfully for me, empty.
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ecolier
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#39
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#39
(Original post by bingbong9214)
...I've already said I'm from China, born and brought up there and I know their system, your points are completely contradictory to family sources who have told me otherwise...
Please do tell us what you and your sources say is happening in China right now.

I take it - billions dead, bodies being left on the streets, people wearing gas masks, buildings being burnt down, borders with Mongolia / NK / Vietnam etc. overwhelmed with refugees escaping China?

And of course, the US / major satellite operators in the world are in on this.... because they possibly couldn't see this - it's all happening underground, right?
Last edited by ecolier; 2 weeks ago
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fallen_acorns
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This is genuinely one of the most weird experiences I've had on here...

I've had plenty of strange arguments and threads, but to have people so sure, despite not being here, that its raining when I can look out the window and see the sun is out - is beyond weird.

When conspiracy theories take root - nothing that counters them makes a bit of difference.

I'm going to go out and enjoy the next few days though. No lockdown, everythings open, virus gone, weather has been pretty good recently - its going to be a good few days.

I'll keep my eyes open for the phantom pandemic though, maybe its lurking behind a corner somewhere!
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