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Johnson to renege on Withdrawal Agreement

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Original post by imlikeahermit
Completely agree, however, if you are watching parliament like myself at the moment you’ll have witnessed Sammy Wilson claim that the US not wanting a trade deal with us is completely not the case! Doesn’t matter how many times you tell these people, they’re still utterly deluded.

It's true that we are seeing people in the ranks of the backbenches and so on who believe in their own delusions, but this really isn't the case in the upper levels, they are cynics who know perfectly well how bad things will be for the bulk of the population and don't care - they are working for global financier interests.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
It's true that we are seeing people in the ranks of the backbenches and so on who believe in their own delusions, but this really isn't the case in the upper levels, they are cynics who know perfectly well how bad things will be for the bulk of the population and don't care - they are working for global financier interests.

That’s the saddest thing about this. There is no scenario out of this where we will come off any better or even the same as we are now. We are making ourselves poorer, yet they just don’t give a ****. They really don’t care.
Original post by nulli tertius
To which my repost has always been, tell that to a Australian.


It's also important to distinguish between "old old" voters and just plain "old" voters. Frequently polls show that those 65+ voted in favour of Brexit by the biggest numbers but they really should break down the numbers in 10 year intervals for a clearer picture. I think it would show the baby boomer generation even more in favour of Brexit whilst those older than that were less enthusiastic.
Original post by AW_1983
It's also important to distinguish between "old old" voters and just plain "old" voters. Frequently polls show that those 65+ voted in favour of Brexit by the biggest numbers but they really should break down the numbers in 10 year intervals for a clearer picture. I think it would show the baby boomer generation even more in favour of Brexit whilst those older than that were less enthusiastic.

The really marked split was between graduates and non-graduates, but if you look at the stats for areas like the Home Counties, white over-75s overwhelmingly voted for Brexit.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
The really marked split was between graduates and non-graduates, but if you look at the stats for areas like the Home Counties, white over-75s overwhelmingly voted for Brexit.

Not being overly stereotypical here, however I don’t find it surprising that those with a better education were not as taken in by the wild delusions and promises that were being offered. I work in a field with highly educated people and I can confidently say that none of them voted to leave. I should add, I don’t usually buy into the idea that because you have a degree you are better, however in this case, like you’ve said, there is a stark contrast.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
The really marked split was between graduates and non-graduates, but if you look at the stats for areas like the Home Counties, white over-75s overwhelmingly voted for Brexit.


There was definitely a graduate vs non-graduate split but there does seem to be a sizeable population of very elderly people with no appetite for Brexit, perhaps because they're the only ones who can vividly remember Britain in the 1940s and 1950s.
Original post by imlikeahermit
Not being overly stereotypical here, however I don’t find it surprising that those with a better education were not as taken in by the wild delusions and promises that were being offered. I work in a field with highly educated people and I can confidently say that none of them voted to leave. I should add, I don’t usually buy into the idea that because you have a degree you are better, however in this case, like you’ve said, there is a stark contrast.

I am very firmly a Remainer but if you look at what the EU spent money on, an awful lot of it did not impact the lives of an awful lot of Brexit supporters.

Hartlepool received £7.4M of grant money between 2007/13.

Think of your typical poorly educated elderly Brexit supporter and what matters to them; but ignore any thoughts they may have for their children and grandchildren.

The money included "regional development, businesses investment, creates job opportunities, improves prospects for young people through apprenticeships and higher education, and supports agriculture."

Nothing there

"£1.39million to Hartlepool Borough Council to support young people not in education, employment or training to improve their job chances."

Nothing there

"£1.25million in community grants"

Possibly something there, but do we really think the money went to working mens' clubs and bowls leagues?

"£400,000 to the Hartlepool Enterprise Growth Hub."

Nothing there

"Hartlepool College of Further Education has also benefited from £204,730 to providing vocational training to people in custody."

Nothing there

What didn't the EU provide:-

Anything to the NHS
Anything towards the costs of heating
Any subsidy to buses
Any assistance with household goods, property maintenance, domestic services
Any subsidy to attract 1950s tribute acts
Any reduction in the rates of duty of cigarettes and alcohol.

A lot of EU money doesn't go to the young. The fortunes spent on cultural buildings are usually for the benefit of the mature but its the well-heeled mature.
(edited 3 years ago)
Original post by nulli tertius
I am very firmly a Remainer but if you look at what the EU spent money on, an awful lot of it did not impact the lives of an awful lot of Brexit supporters.

Hartlepool received £7.4M of grant money between 2007/13.

Think of your typical poorly educated elderly Brexit supporter and what matters to them; but ignore any thoughts they may have for their children and grandchildren.

The money included "regional development, businesses investment, creates job opportunities, improves prospects for young people through apprenticeships and higher education, and supports agriculture."

Nothing there

"£1.39million to Hartlepool Borough Council to support young people not in education, employment or training to improve their job chances."

Nothing there

"£1.25million in community grants"

Possibly something there, but do we really think the money went to working mens' clubs and bowls leagues?

"£400,000 to the Hartlepool Enterprise Growth Hub."

Nothing there

"Hartlepool College of Further Education has also benefited from £204,730 to providing vocational training to people in custody."

Nothing there

What didn't the EU provide:-

Anything to the NHS
Anything towards the costs of heating
Any subsidy to buses
Any assistance with household goods, property maintenance, domestic services
Any subsidy to attract 1950s tribute acts
Any reduction in the rates of duty of cigarettes and alcohol.

A lot of EU money doesn't go to the young. The fortunes spent on cultural buildings are usually for the benefit of the mature but its the well-heeled mature.


All that's true of course but that investment goes an awful long way to boosting prosperity and raising tax revenues to fund state pensions.

I actually think the state pension should be on the front line for cuts in the event that Brexit causes a fall in tax revenues, to make a point to the group most likely to vote for it.
Original post by AW_1983
All that's true of course but that investment goes an awful long way to boosting prosperity and raising tax revenues to fund state pensions.

You'd need a bloody big bus to carry that message

To follow up, there have been an awful lot of snouts in the EU trough over the last 40 years, but whether they were Tory grain barons or Labour luvvies nobody prior to 2016 asked what did these poor saps get out of the EU?
(edited 3 years ago)
Original post by nulli tertius
You'd need a bloody big bus to carry that message

To follow up, there have been an awful lot of snouts in the EU trough over the last 40 years, but whether they were Tory grain barons or Labour luvvies nobody prior to 2016 asked what did these poor saps get out of the EU?

Besides the goods they bought being subject to more rigorous standards and being tariff free you mean? And besides the much cheaper holidays abroad? And all the foreign labour coming in and paying taxes so the lazy ones could sit on their fat backsides claiming benefits?
Original post by Fullofsurprises
For me, total rejection of a deal by Congress would be a great outcome as it would force the UK government to stop playing to their own ridiculous audiences and start focusing properly on reality. Although for Boris this might prove too big a challenge.

Resistance to our Orban-style government can only grow in the US after the election, if the Dems take the Senate and Biden is President, Boris will be completely marginalised.

I was about to agree with your point but then decided i should read the detail and am now glad i did.

It turns out that the people who wrote the letter are firstly just 4 random congressmen Eliot Engel, Richard Neal, William Keating and Peter King and simply largely backed up Pelosi who far from declaring no deal included a big caveat 'if there is hard border on the island of Ireland'.

So while i'm not bothered about a UK-US trade agreement myself (i suspect we'll have to make changes to comply with them in some sectors) it would seem that your a bit excited and that remaoners are being a bit selective in which bits of Pelosi's speech they wish to focus on, not least since there appears to be no threat of a hard border.
Original post by Rakas21
I was about to agree with your point but then decided i should read the detail and am now glad i did.

It turns out that the people who wrote the letter are firstly just 4 random congressmen Eliot Engel, Richard Neal, William Keating and Peter King and simply largely backed up Pelosi who far from declaring no deal included a big caveat 'if there is hard border on the island of Ireland'.

So while i'm not bothered about a UK-US trade agreement myself (i suspect we'll have to make changes to comply with them in some sectors) it would seem that your a bit excited and that remaoners are being a bit selective in which bits of Pelosi's speech they wish to focus on, not least since there appears to be no threat of a hard border.

Biden has confirmed he is opposed.
https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1306334039557586944

It's a lot more than just a few Reps. The whole Democratic Party is going to repudiate it which if, as seems likely, they win big in November, means plenty of trouble for our dreadful sham of a government.
Original post by nulli tertius
I am very firmly a Remainer but if you look at what the EU spent money on, an awful lot of it did not impact the lives of an awful lot of Brexit supporters.

Hartlepool received £7.4M of grant money between 2007/13.

Think of your typical poorly educated elderly Brexit supporter and what matters to them; but ignore any thoughts they may have for their children and grandchildren.

The money included "regional development, businesses investment, creates job opportunities, improves prospects for young people through apprenticeships and higher education, and supports agriculture."

Nothing there

"£1.39million to Hartlepool Borough Council to support young people not in education, employment or training to improve their job chances."

Nothing there

"£1.25million in community grants"

Possibly something there, but do we really think the money went to working mens' clubs and bowls leagues?

"£400,000 to the Hartlepool Enterprise Growth Hub."

Nothing there

"Hartlepool College of Further Education has also benefited from £204,730 to providing vocational training to people in custody."

Nothing there

What didn't the EU provide:-

Anything to the NHS
Anything towards the costs of heating
Any subsidy to buses
Any assistance with household goods, property maintenance, domestic services
Any subsidy to attract 1950s tribute acts
Any reduction in the rates of duty of cigarettes and alcohol.

A lot of EU money doesn't go to the young. The fortunes spent on cultural buildings are usually for the benefit of the mature but its the well-heeled mature.

How much of this was down to the spending decisions of our own government and regional bodies and local authorities? Regional aid gets mediated by local bodies. I suspect this is as much about the elitism and what is considered worthy of expenditure in this country. The middle classes tend to dominate such bodies.

Ireland has done well at popularising the EU by spending a lot of EU regional cash on really sensible local projects, particularly in stimulating business activity, assisting in developing infrastructure and helping people into jobs.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
How much of this was down to the spending decisions of our own government and regional bodies and local authorities? Regional aid gets mediated by local bodies. I suspect this is as much about the elitism and what is considered worthy of expenditure in this country. The middle classes tend to dominate such bodies.

Ireland has done well at popularising the EU by spending a lot of EU regional cash on really sensible local projects, particularly in stimulating business activity, assisting in developing infrastructure and helping people into jobs.

The broad thrust of expenditure would be decided at EU level. The individual decisions would have been made much more locally. In other words the decision not to spend EU money on healthcare and transport subsidies would be made in Brussels; the decision to fund for example a centre for interpretive dance would have been made regionally.

Ireland hasn't really spent money on things that are different to what the UK has spent money on. What Ireland has is (a) a younger population (b) a more rural population and (c) a significant working class interest in minority sport ie the GAA. That means that spending money on the things that the EU spends money on, touches a greater proportion of the population.

In the UK, Labour MPs in working class areas, in particular, were perfectly happy if the EU gravy train was calling in their constituencies without asking who was benefiting from that largesse. Birmingham received over £1M for a "digital heritage demonstrator" interactive thingys at local museums. That money could have gone on refreshing the stock at suburban libraries. It is not immediately obvious that one provides more economic stimulus than the other but I suspect there was a huge demographic difference in who reaped the benefit.
Original post by AW_1983
Besides the goods they bought being subject to more rigorous standards and being tariff free you mean? And besides the much cheaper holidays abroad? And all the foreign labour coming in and paying taxes so the lazy ones could sit on their fat backsides claiming benefits?

Worth noting that the lazy ones sitting on their fat backsides also voted for this, not just the elderly. They voted to stop these people coming in and stealing the jobs; jobs they’ve never applied for in the first place. :rolleyes:
Original post by imlikeahermit
Worth noting that the lazy ones sitting on their fat backsides also voted for this, not just the elderly. They voted to stop these people coming in and stealing the jobs; jobs they’ve never applied for in the first place. :rolleyes:

Except their not really applying for jobs because you need to be legally living in the UK. You dont have to work if you live off state benefits in a 4* hotel
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Yes, it was worth causing mayhem and probably a long term 30% decline in national income in order to be able to eat more fish.

Don't say such things!

The readers of the Daily Mail and the Sun will be very unpleased with your comments..
Original post by Ambitious1999
Sadly on this forum well over 95% of members support Brexit and hate the EU, ironical this being a student forum too :frown:

This is a student room and the majority of students are obviously anti-Tory and against Brexit.

However these rooms are used by non students and especially right wing deluded and confused Tory Brexiteers who try their propaganda on a daily basis.

Many of the University Students here font even bother answering those Tory Brexiteers.

Universities are places for people who think that's why you can hardly find and Tory Voters or any Brexiteers.

In contrast outside Unis you will find plenty of uneducated, deluded, naive, and often stupid individuals, who were given the right by a reckless David Cameron to play roulette with the future of the country.
Original post by Lucifer323
This is a student room and the majority of students are obviously anti-Tory and against Brexit.

However these rooms are used by non students and especially right wing deluded and confused Tory Brexiteers who try their propaganda on a daily basis.

Many of the University Students here font even bother answering those Tory Brexiteers.

Universities are places for people who think that's why you can hardly find and Tory Voters or any Brexiteers.

In contrast outside Unis you will find plenty of uneducated, deluded, naive, and often stupid individuals, who were given the right by a reckless David Cameron to play roulette with the future of the country.

Your last sentence, while not ideal is spot on. A decision of this magnitude should never have been put out to the uneducated masses.
Original post by imlikeahermit
Worth noting that the lazy ones sitting on their fat backsides also voted for this, not just the elderly. They voted to stop these people coming in and stealing the jobs; jobs they’ve never applied for in the first place. :rolleyes:

I can see the motives of people living in coastal towns or in crop-picking areas who get anxious about having large numbers of recent immigrants living in their areas - one of the many badly mishandled things about mass inward EU migration in the UK was that the government failed to provide the required extra resources, which were considerable, for education in the towns affected, as well as policing and housing. The results have not been good.

The real hard core selfish are the well off white retirees in the Home Counties who hardly ever see or meet a genuine immigrant and rely on the migrant-picked veg in M & S yet voted Leave because they 'want to take back control', yeah, right.

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