Johnson to renege on Withdrawal Agreement

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DiddyDec
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Burton Bridge)
No I dont think it's a good idea to break an agreement or international law.

I'm going to be completely honest, I've been busy in my personal/professional life of recent therefore I'm a little out of touch with happenings. I'm not 100% sure what the current train wreck of a government has done, or what part if the agreement they have broke. However I don't think it's a good idea to break international agreements at a time when we are trying to sign new ones (or at least should be).

In short I'm not defending the government, however I'm a little uninformed on the subject matter at present, I'm finding it amusing how some hard core remainers are desperate to crow about stuff like this though
This sums up the bill pretty well.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ernational-law
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Gundabad(good)
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
The deal was only a stop-gap until a better deal could be negotiated. As a deal can't be negotiated it's right to opt for the next best thing (no deal). Reneging on a treaty isn't a big deal.

My hope is he remains strong and does follow through on all the threats. The worst move would be caving to anything the EU want. I don't like to call the discussions 'negotiations. Calling them negotiations implies both sides compromise on things. I don't want to see that. I would rather Britain refuses to make compromises!
Didn't think you as a leaver.
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Gundabad(good)
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
Boris Johnson has reportedly decided that the "oven ready" deal that he personally negotiated now doesn't make sense.

In doing so the UK will be breaking an international treaty before trade deals with other nations who are expected to trust us.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...hnson-tell-eu/
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The Brexit divorce deal is "contradictory" and must be rewritten to protect the Union, Boris Johnson will tell EU leaders on Tuesday.

The Prime Minister believes the UK-EU Withdrawal Agreement is legally ambiguous and would leave Northern Ireland isolated from the rest of the UK, something that was "unforeseen" when he agreed to it last year.

Michel Barnier, the EU's chief Brexit negotiator, arrives in London on Tuesday morning for the latest round of formal trade talks after Mr Johnson said he "will not back down" over his plan to change the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement through legislation being tabled on Wednesday.

The move has triggered a major row between London and Brussels, with the European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen, saying the issue was a matter of "trust".
She threatened not to do business with Britain in future if the Government refused to abide by the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement, which Brussels insists is legally binding.

Mr Barnier said honouring the existing agreement was a "precondition" for progress to be made in trade deal negotiations this week, while critics of Mr Johnson accused him of wanting to force a "no trade deal" exit at the end of the year.
A Brexit Withdrawal Q&A
But David Frost, the UK's lead negotiator, will tell Mr Barnier it is time for the EU to recognise the "reality" that Britain is a sovereign state, free to set its own laws. He will also "drive home our clear message that we must make progress this week if we are to reach an agreement in time".

Downing Street insisted it merely wanted to "clarify" parts of the Agreement to protect the interests of Northern Ireland and the ongoing peace process as a "safety net" in case no trade deal is agreed, and that a deal was still the Government's objective.

A Number 10 spokesman left little doubt that Mr Johnson did not believe the Withdrawal Agreement – originally negotiated by Theresa May – made sense, as the UK internal market and the peace process would be "compromised by unintended consequences" if it was not amended.

Mr Johnson renegotiated the terms of the Northern Ireland Protocol, removing the so-called "backstop", before agreeing the terms of Britain's exit from the EU in October.

The current legal default position is that, after December 31, all goods passing from mainland Britain to Northern Ireland would be subject to customs checks and tariffs, that businesses in Northern Ireland would have to fill in customs declarations for goods being sold to the mainland, and that EU rules on state aid could be applied to mainland companies selling goods in Northern Ireland.

But a senior Government source said some of the consequences "were not foreseen" at the time. The source added: "The protocol is contradictory in some respects – it talks about protecting the EU single market but also giving Northern Ireland unfettered access to the UK market. You can't have both.

"Without a trade deal, all goods passing from the mainland to Northern Ireland would be subject to tariffs, because they would be classed as being 'at risk' of being sold on to the EU market. Even though traders could later claim back the money by proving the goods didn't leave the UK, the administrative costs would be considerable."

Ms von der Leyen warned there could be no backtracking by the UK on its previous commitments if it wanted to reach a free trade agreement, saying: "I trust the British Government to implement the Withdrawal Agreement, an obligation under international law and prerequisite for any future partnership."

Leaked diplomatic cables sent to EU capitals from Brussels in recent days accuse Mr Johnson of dithering on issues such as fisheries, state aid and dispute resolution during negotiations in order to achieve a "trade-off" at the eleventh hour.

A commission official has told EU diplomats these points can't be ironed out with a simple phone call, saying "it is leaving it too late", according to The Guardian.

In a letter to Conservative supporters, Mr Johnson said he "will not back down" but added that he still hoped for a trade deal.
The Prime Minister spoke to French president, Emmanuel Macron, on Tuesday, when both agreed on the need to make progress in the talks. Mr Macron said the two had a "very good exchange", suggesting he does not regard Mr Johnson's latest move as a deal-breaker.

Mr Frost said on Monday night: "We have now been talking for six months and can no longer afford to go over well-trodden ground. We need to see more realism from the EU about our status as an independent country.

"We have repeatedly made clear that key elements of our position derive from the fundamentals of being a sovereign state, and it's time for the EU to fully recognise this reality.

"If they can't do that in the very limited time, we have left then we will be trading on terms like those the EU has with Australia, and we are ramping up our preparations for the end of the year."
He said there was "still time to reach a good agreement". On Sunday, Mr Johnson had set a five-week deadline for an agreement to be reached.

Mr Johnson is understood to have reassured him that the changes were limited and technical, and that he would honour commitments made when the deal was agreed last year.

The Internal Market Bill, to be tabled on Wednesday, will ensure that goods from Northern Ireland continue to have unfettered access to the UK market while making clear that EU state aid rules – which will continue to apply in Northern Ireland – will not apply in the rest of the UK.

In addition, an amendment to the Finance Bill will give ministers, not the EU, the power to designate which goods going from Great Britain to Northern Ireland are considered "at risk" of entering the EU single market and are therefore liable to EU tariffs.
The Prime Minister's spokesman said: "As a responsible Government, we cannot allow the peace process or the UK's internal market to inadvertently be compromised by unintended consequences of the protocol.

"So we are taking limited and reasonable steps to clarify specific elements of the Northern Ireland protocol in domestic law to remove any ambiguity and to ensure the Government is always able to deliver on its commitments to the people of Northern Ireland."


Due to this the Head of the UK Government Legal Department has now resigned.

https://www.ft.com/content/6186bf1c-...3-4eea763e1b94
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The head of the UK’s government legal department, has quit over suggestions that Boris Johnson is trying to row back on parts of last year’s Brexit deal relating to Northern Ireland.

Jonathan Jones is the sixth senior Whitehall civil servant to resign this year, amid growing tensions between the prime minister and officials at the top of the civil service.

Two Whitehall officials with knowledge of the situation told the Financial Times that the Treasury solicitor and permanent secretary of the Government Legal Department was leaving his position due to a dispute with Downing Street over its plans to challenge parts of the Brexit withdrawal agreement.

Those close to Sir Jonathan said he was “very unhappy” about the decision to overwrite parts of the Northern Ireland protocol, part of the 2019 withdrawal agreement, with new powers in the UK internal market bill.

Number 10 insisted the new powers were “limited” and were needed to bring clarity to the protocol agreed and signed by Mr Johnson last October.Sir Jonathan’s departure follows the exit of cabinet secretary Mark Sedwill, Simon McDonald from the Foreign Office, Philip Rutnam from the Home Office, Richard Heaton from the Ministry of Justice and Jonathan Slater from the Department for Education.

Dominic Cummings, Mr Johnson’s chief adviser, wants civil servants to take more responsibility when things go wrong, but the failure of any minister to quit during the coronavirus crisis has heightened tensions. He has also promised that a “hard rain” will fall across Whitehall.

His formal departure is expected to be announced on Tuesday. The Cabinet Office declined to comment.

This is what solicitors do when they can no longer defend their client.
Johnson signed an agreement that he knew he wan't going to keep. It's all going to plan for him.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
This sums up the bill pretty well.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ernational-law
I'd quite like a sauce that is more neutral rather than something from.the remainstream moan alot guardian, but I'll take a read and let you know my thoughts.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I'd quite like a sauce that is more neutral rather than something from.the remainstream moan alot guardian, but I'll take a read and let you know my thoughts.
The substance of the bill will not change regardless of which paper is reporting on it.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I'd quite like a sauce that is more neutral rather than something from.the remainstream moan alot guardian, but I'll take a read and let you know my thoughts.
They are basically changing the mutual stuff on NI to unilateral.

It's basically an admission that they expect the trade negotiations to collapse.
Last edited by Rakas21; 2 weeks ago
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Rakas21)
They are basically changing the mutual stuff on NI to unilateral.

It's basically an admission that they expect the trade negotiations to collapse.
I've just read into it and it's all abit hazy at the moment we dont actually know the full details of what the government are planning on doing, somethings Johnson's government is hell bent on achieving are things we dont do anyway.

I really think this could be a over exaggerated storm in a teacup, I guess we need to wait and see what will be actually in the finished bill after its passed through both houses before we jump to mass hysteria. I do find it funny how arch looney nobody remainers john major, Philip hammond and co have sprung up.out of nowhere to help the storm along it's way.

At the end of the day if trade deals do collapse, then no deal is here and the withdrawal agreement means diddly squat.... so..
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 2 weeks ago
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DiddyDec
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Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the House has put out a statement on the matter and the ongoing FTA negotiations with the US.

"If the U.K. violates that international treaty and Brexit undermines the Good Friday accord, there will be absolutely no chance of a U.S.-U.K. trade agreement passing the Congress."
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the House has put out a statement on the matter and the ongoing FTA negotiations with the US.

"If the U.K. violates that international treaty and Brexit undermines the Good Friday accord, there will be absolutely no chance of a U.S.-U.K. trade agreement passing the Congress."
If if if.....if I was a woman I'd be a mother not a father

Let's just wait and see what actually happens, let's not get over excited.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
I've just read into it and it's all abit hazy at the moment we dont actually know the full details of what the government are planning on doing, somethings Johnson's government is hell bent on achieving are things we dont do anyway.

I really think this could be a over exaggerated storm in a teacup, I guess we need to wait and see what will be actually in the finished bill after its passed through both houses before we jump to mass hysteria. I do find it funny how arch looney nobody remainers john major, Philip hammond and co have sprung up.out of nowhere to help the storm along it's way.

At the end of the day if trade deals do collapse, then no deal is here and the withdrawal agreement means diddly squat.... so..
On the later point that's the issue. The withdrawal agreement (divorce payment and NI provisions) are supposed to apply regardless.

Its also down to a genuine principal that you cannot amend a treaty you signed unilaterally.

Remoaners are naturally focussing on one side, leavers the other because nobody really likes the withdrawal stipulations for NI (it's an Irish land grab in effect).

I tend to be neutral to supportive of the government here because although I don't much like breaching the treaty I don't at all like the withdrawal agreement either. For me the British parliament is sovereign and so if on this issue it votes the change through then I can live with that.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
If if if.....if I was a woman I'd be a mother not a father

Let's just wait and see what actually happens, let's not get over excited.
The EU don't look like they want to sit back and relax.

From a source that may be more to your liking "EU considers legal action as UK unpicks Brexit deal".
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L i b
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
Please don't say such things around here as the Right Wing Brexiteers will be very unhappy! Such as

Mr Liber
Mr Paul
Mr L i b
Mr Burton
And a couple of others...
Proud campaigner for Britain Stronger in Europe here - the sort that actually did active campaigning for a Remain vote rather than just mouth off on the interwebs - and before that, for many years, a member of the European Movement UK.

But, of course, clearly a "right-wing Brexiteer".
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Biggest load of tosh I’ve read on here, and that includes my posts.

No deal is absolute suicide. Are you dense?
Brexit nonsense for once more!
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by L i b)
Proud campaigner for Britain Stronger in Europe here - the sort that actually did active campaigning for a Remain vote rather than just mouth off on the interwebs - and before that, for many years, a member of the European Movement UK.

But, of course, clearly a "right-wing Brexiteer".
At the end of the day nobody is a Brexiteer.. My list will be reduced to Liber and Mr Burton...

Apologies for adding you up to the list I will now remove you.

😈😈😈
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Exactly the same. What you said earlier is spot on. I want to watch England burn. The working classes voted for this, I want them to see exactly what they’ve done. Racist uneducated sheep.
If I was to make the last comment you made then I will be classified as ignorant and racist myself... And I will get some much criticisms from right and left wing Brexiteers. It's usually the right ones, but...

It seems that my comments have had a lot of success and the Brexiteers can't handle any criticisms and the truth...

You call them uneducated sheep, I call them naive and stupid.. Not far I will say...
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
I genuinely believe no deal is the best outcome for all wealthy EU countries. When all countries are trading on a no deal basis they can start implementing agreements that work for them rather than relying on the EU that is constant compromise and dominated by the poor countries.
Oops! Another deluted Brexiteer!

What on Earth are you talking about?!?!
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
You're mistaken. I'm suggesting we get out and ignore European harmony. We wait for the inevitable crumble of the EU. Everything else you said suffers from saying lots of words without substance. No one is a global laughing stocks. That's all nonsense. As too is talk of economic euthanasia.

International law isn't proper law. We're free to break is if it benefits us. As other have done and will continue to do. There aren't any serious punishments to come from it.
International law isn't proper law?!

On what grounds isn't proper law? Where on Earth??

You Brexiteers are very confused and that's why Brexit became so popular in the last 4-5 years.

The UK is indeed a laughing stock for the rest of the world. It has an electorate which is full of uneducated and igmorant voters who think they know about economics & politics as they were given the right by a reckless David Cameron to go to a referendum and express their ignorance and idiocy.

There is no issue in the EU. The only country leaving is the UK and not in the position to make any demands. You said we had to wait until the EU crambles. So of your fellow Brexiteers suggested that the EU will break up..
It looks increasingly likely that it is the UK that will break up as a result of the Brexit vote.
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the House has put out a statement on the matter and the ongoing FTA negotiations with the US.

"If the U.K. violates that international treaty and Brexit undermines the Good Friday accord, there will be absolutely no chance of a U.S.-U.K. trade agreement passing the Congress."
No ****!!!
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
The issue with that is that it is complete fallacy that all countries can trade on their own agreements. If all countries were following our lead and taking themselves out the biggest trading bloc in the world, in order to tailor make trade deals, that would in theory be less damaging, which I believe is what you are saying.

However, that is quite clearly not the case. We are erecting massive barriers to trade, and we are the only one's doing it. The job bloodbath has already begun under Covid and will only get worse when Boris ****s this up even more.

Thirdly, you better get used to being dominated by poor countries because that is the league we are relegating ourselves too. We are making ourselves a complete laughing stock. The world is in disbelief that we are committing economic euthanasia. We are a joke, and the EU owes us absolutely nothing. All for what? Sovereignty? Absolute ********.

Lastly, what is more troubling is that you seem to be absolutely fine with Boris and co breaking international law. What sort of example is that for a government to its citizens? Not to mention, the punishments we will face as a result.

We are a joke, because our people blindly followed a utopian promise, when in fact, nothing was even wrong in the first place. Just those damn immigrants coming over here and stealing jobs, which never happened to begin with.
It doesn't matter if we have become the laughing stock in Europe and the whole world.

It doesn't matter if the working classes and lower middle classes have voted against their interests and rights and have damaged the National Interest.

It doesn't matter if we face an economic disaster in the future and deals that will be very costly.

Nor it matters that we are not going to have an extra £350M for the NHS every week as promised.

And of course it doesn't matter that we could an have lost so many jobs with no prospect of recovering.

All it matters is that we are not going to have anymore immigrants from the EU, especially Polish, Romanians & Bulgarians, who take our jobs, and we will take our country back just like Priti Patel said many times. No more oppression from the EU and its unelected officials!

The UK is finally free!
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
At the end of the day nobody is a Brexiteer.. My list will be reduced to Liber and Mr Burton...

Apologies for adding you up to the list I will now remove you.

😈😈😈
Oh you think me and LiberOfLondon voted 17.4 million times, that's interesting :rolleyes:

So now we have that cleared up :afraid: Maybe you can at last provide a little bit of reasoning as to why you believe I'm right wing, I have been waiting considerable time to here this genius. :rolleyes:
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