Johnson to renege on Withdrawal Agreement

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Napp
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#81
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#81
(Original post by nulli tertius)
Rainbow Warrior- yes

Iraq- no
Every state actor believed Saddam was lying about his denials about weapons of mass destruction. Clearly some very dubious characters invented evidence about those weapons and allied spooks variously convinced themselves the evidence was genuine and "sexed up" sceptical reports about the evidence. In the same way that policemen "fit up" people they believe to be guilty, the politicians who invaed Iraq believed the invasion was justified.
Believing him to be fibbing about wanting them maybe, only the dishonest and credulous believed a country that couldnt even keep the lights on had 'wmds that can be deployed in 45 minutes'.
Laos-Cambodia- no
The US and South Vietnam maintained that Laos and Cambodia were in breach of their duties to South Vietnam by failing o prevent infiltration by North Vietnamese forces,
Very dangerous logic to be going along there. Alas one that is regularly evoked by the strong to batter the weak.

[/quote]
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anime<3gaming
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#82
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breaking 'international' law. I think the EU has done many then. In fact they broke their own law on A.50 because it was supposed to be 2 years and if no special deal worked out we leave on WTO. WTO isnt actually a bad way. Doing a trade deal with the EU is good. But the issue is the EU doesnt WANT a trade deal. They want political control and control of the waters and border. I'm all for a trade deal but if the EU keeps refusing then we leave promptly. Then do trade deals with other countries
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Rakas21
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Interesting that some still care for the legality of the Iraq war given that Saddam was a genocidal dictator. Our only crime was not hanging him after Kuwait.
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Napp
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Interesting that some still care for the legality of the Iraq war given that Saddam was a genocidal dictator. Our only crime was not hanging him after Kuwait.
I feel the legality rather plays second fiddle to the hundreds of thousands killed during the war and the disgraceful incompetence that led to the entire region burning.

and being lied to of course. WMD's indeed.
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Napp
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(Original post by anime<3gaming)
breaking 'international' law. I think the EU has done many then. In fact they broke their own law on A.50 because it was supposed to be 2 years and if no special deal worked out we leave on WTO. WTO isnt actually a bad way. Doing a trade deal with the EU is good. But the issue is the EU doesnt WANT a trade deal. They want political control and control of the waters and border. I'm all for a trade deal but if the EU keeps refusing then we leave promptly. Then do trade deals with other countries
What makes you say this exactly? There being a rather big difference between not wanting a deal and wanting one that benefits them, an eminently reasonable position for them to take. Not least of all because Messr's Johnson and co. have cemented the view of 'perfidious albion' now.
If the UK can't even keep its word in law why on earth would they trust us not to abuse a border, fishing rights etc.

Of course this is all completely ignoring the fact nobody really gives a shite about the fishing waters (at least on the British side). As far as dog whistles go it does fire up the base.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Napp)
What makes you say this exactly? There being a rather big difference between not wanting a deal and wanting one that benefits them, an eminently reasonable position for them to take. Not least of all because Messr's Johnson and co. have cemented the view of 'perfidious albion' now.
If the UK can't even keep its word in law why on earth would they trust us not to abuse a border, fishing rights etc.

Of course this is all completely ignoring the fact nobody really gives a shite about the fishing waters (at least on the British side). As far as dog whistles go it does fire up the base.
Fishing is like steel. It's not especially important nationally but it's constituency concentrated. That gives it political impact.

Plus an island nation sharing it's fish is a bit stupid.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Interesting that some still care for the legality of the Iraq war given that Saddam was a genocidal dictator. Our only crime was not hanging him after Kuwait.
It's a technical concern for me. I'm glad he's gone, but not exactly chuffed about the way the aftermath was handled. And then you've got to look at motives. I doubt the fact he was a horribly cruel despot was a big factor in the invasion planning.
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Napp
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
I doubt the fact he was a horribly cruel despot was a big factor in the invasion planning.
Especially given us, the US and our other allies were the ones who armed him to the teeth and told him to crack on with his extermination campaign.
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Napp
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Fishing is like steel. It's not especially important nationally but it's constituency concentrated. That gives it political impact.

Plus an island nation sharing it's fish is a bit stupid.
I feel thats the problem. Turning an irrelevent local issue into one of national import is ridiculous. Especially as we don't even eat the damn stuff but export it. Vander Weyer had a good overview of the issue in this weeks Spectator actually.
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L i b
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#90
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(Original post by Napp)
I feel thats the problem. Turning an irrelevent local issue into one of national import is ridiculous. Especially as we don't even eat the damn stuff but export it. Vander Weyer had a good overview of the issue in this weeks Spectator actually.
I mean, no doubt the industry is small, but in my experience it's one that more people feel invested in than you might imagine. All those little former fishing villages and towns that don't even have a fleet any more think it's totemic and somehow part of their heritage.

In terms of irrelevance, it does explain (at least in part) why the Tories have gained a fairly strong foothold in north-east Scotland since 2017.
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Lucifer323
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#91
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Fishing is like steel. It's not especially important nationally but it's constituency concentrated. That gives it political impact.

Plus an island nation sharing it's fish is a bit stupid.
(Original post by Napp)
What makes you say this exactly? There being a rather big difference between not wanting a deal and wanting one that benefits them, an eminently reasonable position for them to take. Not least of all because Messr's Johnson and co. have cemented the view of 'perfidious albion' now.
If the UK can't even keep its word in law why on earth would they trust us not to abuse a border, fishing rights etc.

Of course this is all completely ignoring the fact nobody really gives a shite about the fishing waters (at least on the British side). As far as dog whistles go it does fire up the base.
Don't worry about fishing!

Now that the imports will become significantly more expensive we will be eating our own fish, crabs, lobsters, prawns, etc...
Besides, fish and seafood are very healthy!

Let's take our country back and let's take our waters back! Let's stop the oppression from the EU that oppresses even our own fish, crabs, lobsters, and prawns..

The fishing industry will enter the Golden Age in a few months time. Very good decision by the fishermen to vote for Brexit.4 years ago. They will soon see the results of their vote..
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paul514
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#92
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(Original post by L i b)
I mean, no doubt the industry is small, but in my experience it's one that more people feel invested in than you might imagine. All those little former fishing villages and towns that don't even have a fleet any more think it's totemic and somehow part of their heritage.

In terms of irrelevance, it does explain (at least in part) why the Tories have gained a fairly strong foothold in north-east Scotland since 2017.
Good point on NE Scotland
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
Don't worry about fishing!

Now that the imports will become significantly more expensive we will be eating our own fish, crabs, lobsters, prawns, etc...
Besides, fish and seafood are very healthy!

Let's take our country back and let's take our waters back! Let's stop the oppression from the EU that oppresses even our own fish, crabs, lobsters, and prawns..

The fishing industry will enter the Golden Age in a few months time. Very good decision by the fishermen to vote for Brexit.4 years ago. They will soon see the results of their vote..
I know your trying to be ironic but actually it is one industry which in the long run probably will experience a significant benefit, especially if fish prices do fall (due to the higher supply) and consumers actually eat more of it (which to be honest the government should encourage).
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Rakas21)
I know your trying to be ironic but actually it is one industry which in the long run probably will experience a significant benefit, especially if fish prices do fall (due to the higher supply) and consumers actually eat more of it (which to be honest the government should encourage).
Yes, it was worth causing mayhem and probably a long term 30% decline in national income in order to be able to eat more fish.
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Lol

Oh there is crowing, the nobody remainers names popping back out the woodwork to crow, the whole leave campaign wasn't a lie, no more than any polical campaign was/is a lie. Regards BJ lieing about something he won the GE on that's not strictly true either.

In any case, I still dont think we will end up with no deal.... time will tell
The whole leave campaign was a lie! Where's that £350million on the bus gone? Or has that gone towards the £8billion on customs checks and lorry parks and red tape?

Secondly, he presented to the British public that he would 'get brexit done' on the back of his 'oven ready deal.' Which now looks completely raw. "It's not good enough!" says the man who negotiated it, signed it, forced MP's to back it and won the GE on the back of it...

I do hope your right in terms of not ending up at no deal. However, maybe that'll be the best thing to show those who voted exactly what they voted for...
(Original post by anime<3gaming)
breaking 'international' law. I think the EU has done many then. In fact they broke their own law on A.50 because it was supposed to be 2 years and if no special deal worked out we leave on WTO. WTO isnt actually a bad way. Doing a trade deal with the EU is good. But the issue is the EU doesnt WANT a trade deal. They want political control and control of the waters and border. I'm all for a trade deal but if the EU keeps refusing then we leave promptly. Then do trade deals with other countries
People like you are the ones that will have cost generations thousands if not millions of jobs, money, and livelihoods. "Then do trade deals with other countries." Yeah Boris, just knock one up with another country, that'll cover 43% of trade. Moron.
(Original post by Rakas21)
Fishing is like steel. It's not especially important nationally but it's constituency concentrated. That gives it political impact.

Plus an island nation sharing it's fish is a bit stupid.
Completely agree. Steel, should have been canned yonks ago. I cannot believe successive governments tried to prop it up. Money should have gone into retraining, not trying to save what was already dead.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Yes, it was worth causing mayhem and probably a long term 30% decline in national income in order to be able to eat more fish.
To cause a 30% even relative decline you would be suggesting that ~75% of EU trade would end.
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AW_1983
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#97
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(Original post by anime<3gaming)
breaking 'international' law. I think the EU has done many then. In fact they broke their own law on A.50 because it was supposed to be 2 years and if no special deal worked out we leave on WTO. WTO isnt actually a bad way. Doing a trade deal with the EU is good. But the issue is the EU doesnt WANT a trade deal. They want political control and control of the waters and border. I'm all for a trade deal but if the EU keeps refusing then we leave promptly. Then do trade deals with other countries
The EU allowed the UK an extension at the UK Government's request. That might not follow A.50, but it wouldn't go to the ECJ because if it did it would be the EU that was wronged!
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AW_1983
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(Original post by DSilva)
This isn't even really about the EU.

The facts of this case are relatively simple. We signed up to a deal voluntarily - we didn't have to. The government proclaimed this deal, the Tories put this deal at the heart of their manifesto, Parliament voted through this deal. It's law. That's unarguable.

The fact that it's a terrible deal we never should have signed up to is our fault.

The question is whether we should be a country that abides by international law and treaties, or one that doesn't. And if it's the latter, why would any country sign a deal with us again?
Exactly, and let's not forget the WA Boris Johnson signed was one Theresa May had said no British Prime Minister could ever sign up to because it would put a border in the Irish Sea. The DUP warned Johnson about this last year. Remainers were incandescent with rage as to what was going to happen to Northern Ireland. So for the government now to play dumb as to what the Northern Ireland Protocol means really is gaslighting on a scale never performed by a British Government before.
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1st superstar
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
The whole leave campaign was a lie! Where's that £350million on the bus gone? Or has that gone towards the £8billion on customs checks and lorry parks and red tape?

Secondly, he presented to the British public that he would 'get brexit done' on the back of his 'oven ready deal.' Which now looks completely raw. "It's not good enough!" says the man who negotiated it, signed it, forced MP's to back it and won the GE on the back of it...

I do hope your right in terms of not ending up at no deal. However, maybe that'll be the best thing to show those who voted exactly what they voted for...

People like you are the ones that will have cost generations thousands if not millions of jobs, money, and livelihoods. "Then do trade deals with other countries." Yeah Boris, just knock one up with another country, that'll cover 43% of trade. Moron.

Completely agree. Steel, should have been canned yonks ago. I cannot believe successive governments tried to prop it up. Money should have gone into retraining, not trying to save what was already dead.
Damn you really hate Brexit....
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by 1st superstar)
Damn you really hate Brexit....
Is it the biggest con in history. Millions of working class people have been absolutely conned into making themselves poorer and their country less attractive so that a few people at the top can make a buck off the stock market in the process.

I have been told now by posters on here for so long that everything is going to be absolutely tickety boo, jobs will be aplenty and there will be no adverse circumstances. For me, they’re right. I’m not affected, neither will my partner be affected as we are both in stable jobs not dependent on economic conditions. However we will see ourselves affected financially as the cost of living will rise, employment will fall, leading to welfare issues, most likely tax rises, and crime increasing making it less safe to live here.

It’s fine though, Liz Truss is making deals with countries like Lichtenstein who account for about 0.0% of our trade to Brexit is saved. It’s embarrassing. The most blatant case of self vandalism the world has ever seen.

I did not vote for this, I do not want this, I have been out on the streets protesting against this. And what would have made this slightly more tolerable would have been if at least some of what Johnson and co said was true. However it’s not, we are now an international laughing stock, we are a stones throw away from despotism, and our reputation as a country is tarnished irrevocably. So yes, I really do hate Brexit.
Last edited by imlikeahermit; 2 weeks ago
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