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Anonymous #2
#21
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#21
No, you're being petty
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RogerOxon
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Lilymae69)
but its not fair that richer ppl get to have better eductaion
What else isn't fair - that richer people have better houses, cars, holidays, food, clothes, etc?

I prefer to live in a capitalist society, that provides a decent safety-net (that includes free health care). People should be rewarded for their work, with an incentive to do more, either through time, skill, or education. Money motivates people, and makes work more efficient, so we're all richer.

I don't want to live in a society where people that do nothing get the same standard of living as those that work hard, particularly those that help people.
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PeterRowbotham
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#23
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(Original post by Anonymous)
I'm having a debate with some of my friends who are either south asian/black/Muslim. We are debating whether racism exists in the UK. A few anecdotes came up but we can't decide if it is actually racism or if it can be explained otherwise. I'd really like to know your opinions.

1. When I went to university I was speaking to some people who I would consider as very socially liberal and I mentioned that I went to an Islamic school. A few from that group looked around in shock/disgust as though I made a faux pas for mentioning it. Is this racism - these guys went to BLM protests voted remain etc. Was it inappropriate to mention Islamic school - I here people mention Catholic school all the time?

2. One of my friends was at another university where some people were very welcoming. But once they saw him in Islamic dress code and would no longer talk to him. In example 1 and 2 these people are clearly liberals. And perhaps their reaction is because they they associate many things in Islam to be against their liberal and tolerant values. So they weren't trying to cause any offence but but inadvertently did so

3. One of my friends is from a minority ethnic background and he's from Oxford. When he moved to a northern city many people would be nice to him until he started speaking. He Suspects that people were not nice to him because he was well spoken and and an ethnic minority. But my question is is this racism or or would people from the North or places like Essex be like that towards anyone who sounded like they were privileged? Or is it that people don't feel comfortable with certain people being more privileged than them. (I have experienced baristas sometimes are rude once they hear me speak, but they probably loathe anyone whom they assume is privileged and they're job is horrible - I never get this from Europeans/Asians.)

4. At university all of us acknowledge that most White English people would not mix with anyone who is not white. You generally only see Europeans mixing with minority ethnic people. My friends who are female experience this more so. Again is this because people tend to hang around people who they have more in common with or is this down to race. (In my own experience I had some white friends who would talk to me when they were in European groups but would ignore me when they were with their white friends. But sometimes I felt this was a social class thing rather than a race thing because I consider myself working class and I think at uni people are always thinking about keeping up impressions)

5. Last year some of my friends during Extinction Rebellion protests. They felt at though they were not welcome. It is true that most people at these protests were white but in my observation they are generally a 'type' - they only really mix well with their own cliques. I know it's a massive of generalisation but generally you can identify someone by appearance as a typical climate change protester.


Let me know if you've experienced the above and whether you think it's racism or you think it's poor character/classism/inferiority complex

Thanks
1. To hear that someone went to a faith school and think differently of them is racist. Judge people only by their character. Otherwise you are making inferences that they have no control over. Also Jewish and Muslim schools have it harder than Catholic.
2. Again Islamic dress code shouldn't make you think of people differently. Judge their character.
3. Not racist. People from those parts are defensive when you sound posh - they think you're judging them so they act in advance. But they don't look down on you for race. Some people in menial jobs are like this - and yes maybe a posh sounding Asian wearing a suit hurts them more than a blonde white guy.
4. This is more classism and exists at elite English universities where people only hang out with people who are very similar to them. Especially girls.
5. Such people live in places like Brighton where they've never seen anyone like you. Plus they wouldn't fit in with most ordinary people so ignore it.
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RogerOxon
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#24
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(Original post by PeterRowbotham)
1. To hear that someone went to a faith school and think differently of them is racist.
You seem very confused. Please look-up the definition of race.
Last edited by RogerOxon; 1 week ago
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Anonymous #2
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#25
(Original post by Anonymous)
No, you're being petty
sorry I didn't mean to be rude, just saying that i don't think these things necessarily indicate full-on racism.

by the way I DO NOT agree with racism, it must be destroyed.
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PeterRowbotham
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#26
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#26
(Original post by StarLinyx)
The realities of modern Britain. Students do have a choice of who they wish to be friends with.
I agree with you.

But should people systematically avoid making friends with say asians - the risk is when these people are in positions of authority they make the same sorts of choices in recruitment etc
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Seretonin
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#27
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
The State should not fund (any part of) schools that indoctrinate - that's not education.
It's not indoctrination its a few classes at most a week. Plenty of children from other religious backgrounds go to Catholic and Islamic schools and don't get 'indoctrinated'
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Compost
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#28
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(Original post by Anonymous)
4. At university all of us acknowledge that most White English people would not mix with anyone who is not white. You generally only see Europeans mixing with minority ethnic people.
Really? My family is white and all of my children have friends of different colours. Son 1 - lives with Chinese girl friend, 2 of his closest school friends were Asian (1 Hindu, 1 Sikh background). Son 2 - had a girlfriend for a couple of years whose dad was from Jamaica, has other non-white friends, daughter - most of her friends are not white, Son 3 - closest friend from school is of Indian origin.

Religion is a completely different issue because it's about thoughts and beliefs and not about something you can't change.

edit: I've thought about their friends and the one thing none of us has is a practising Muslim friend. People of Muslim origin - yes - but no one who follows Islam,
Last edited by Compost; 1 week ago
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chloenix
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#29
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#29
(Original post by ^_^/)
why do u think so
I personally believe that faith schools should be abolished because religion and education should be kept separate. Going to school allows you to learn about different cultures and religions, and this is not really possible if you go to a faith school, or much less possible. Also, parents send their children to faith schools which means they are essentially choosing their religion for them, which is wrong in my opinion.
I have nothing against religious Sunday schools or weekend schools, but education and religion shouldn't mix.

It also enforces segregation involuntarily. I know it's obviously not the same, but it's almost as if you had a school full of white people. The point of a multicultural society is for religions and cultures to mix, and not stay seperate.
That being said, if you treat someone differently because they came from a faith school, you are in the wrong. Discrimination is always wrong.
Last edited by chloenix; 1 week ago
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Scottishlad888
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#30
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People from all countrys in the world are all racist towards others in other countrys there is muslim racists black racists white racists brown racists you name it you will find it get on with your life thats what matters
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RogerOxon
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#31
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#31
(Original post by Seretonin)
It's not indoctrination its a few classes at most a week. Plenty of children from other religious backgrounds go to Catholic and Islamic schools and don't get 'indoctrinated'
We'll have to agree to differ on that. That it isn't 100% effective doesn't excuse it.
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Mustafa0605
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#32
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The UK is one of the least racist countries in the world. Even if you look at all the political parties, most of them are centralist and the only major right wing party, the brexit party, is a nationalist party but not really racist. Sure there are groups like the EDL and FLA, but they are not that hardcore and the vast vast majority of people view them as idiots- drunken hooligans.
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PeterRowbotham
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#33
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
You seem very confused. Please look-up the definition or race.
I don't understand why you thought it was polite to start that post in that way. I didn't provoke you. please don't be scummy.

Race and faith are correlated. Most Muslims are arabs/south asian. Most Jews have eastern European/israeli heritage.

Whether it is racism or not, do you think it's correct?
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Compost
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Seretonin)
It's not indoctrination its a few classes at most a week. Plenty of children from other religious backgrounds go to Catholic and Islamic schools and don't get 'indoctrinated'
From my experience it's daily prayers - even a prayer at the start of every lesson in some schools - and the curriculum in some subjects (RS, Biology etc) is influenced by the religious beliefs. I once calculated that the time I had to spend partaking in religion took up the equivalent of over a working year of my life. Yes, it didn't convert me, but what an utter waste of time - and one funded by the state.
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RogerOxon
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#35
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#35
(Original post by PeterRowbotham)
I don't understand why you thought it was polite to start that post in that way. I didn't provoke you. please don't be scummy.
I'm sorry if it came across that way - that's not how it was intended.

(Original post by PeterRowbotham)
Race and faith are correlated. Most Muslims are arabs/south asian. Most Jews have eastern European/israeli heritage.
So? If the reason for the opinion is nothing to do with race, and everything to do with a religion's teachings, it cannot be classed as racism.

(Original post by PeterRowbotham)
Whether it is racism or not, do you think it's correct?
Yes, I do. My opinion of someone would be changed by knowing that they went to an Islamic school. It increases the probability of them believing some of Islam's claims and teachings, some of which I disagree fundamentally with, or are proven false.
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AW_1983
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Anonymous)
I'm having a debate with some of my friends who are either south asian/black/Muslim. We are debating whether racism exists in the UK. A few anecdotes came up but we can't decide if it is actually racism or if it can be explained otherwise. I'd really like to know your opinions.

1. When I went to university I was speaking to some people who I would consider as very socially liberal and I mentioned that I went to an Islamic school. A few from that group looked around in shock/disgust as though I made a faux pas for mentioning it. Is this racism - these guys went to BLM protests voted remain etc. Was it inappropriate to mention Islamic school - I here people mention Catholic school all the time?

2. One of my friends was at another university where some people were very welcoming. But once they saw him in Islamic dress code and would no longer talk to him. In example 1 and 2 these people are clearly liberals. And perhaps their reaction is because they they associate many things in Islam to be against their liberal and tolerant values. So they weren't trying to cause any offence but but inadvertently did so

3. One of my friends is from a minority ethnic background and he's from Oxford. When he moved to a northern city many people would be nice to him until he started speaking. He Suspects that people were not nice to him because he was well spoken and and an ethnic minority. But my question is is this racism or or would people from the North or places like Essex be like that towards anyone who sounded like they were privileged? Or is it that people don't feel comfortable with certain people being more privileged than them. (I have experienced baristas sometimes are rude once they hear me speak, but they probably loathe anyone whom they assume is privileged and they're job is horrible - I never get this from Europeans/Asians.)

4. At university all of us acknowledge that most White English people would not mix with anyone who is not white. You generally only see Europeans mixing with minority ethnic people. My friends who are female experience this more so. Again is this because people tend to hang around people who they have more in common with or is this down to race. (In my own experience I had some white friends who would talk to me when they were in European groups but would ignore me when they were with their white friends. But sometimes I felt this was a social class thing rather than a race thing because I consider myself working class and I think at uni people are always thinking about keeping up impressions)

5. Last year some of my friends during Extinction Rebellion protests. They felt at though they were not welcome. It is true that most people at these protests were white but in my observation they are generally a 'type' - they only really mix well with their own cliques. I know it's a massive of generalisation but generally you can identify someone by appearance as a typical climate change protester.


Let me know if you've experienced the above and whether you think it's racism or you think it's poor character/classism/inferiority complex

Thanks
Racism isn't always intentional. Most people are brought up with cognitive biases that impair their judgement. If for example you told me you went to an Islamic School when I was 18 I would have been surprised (not disgusted or shocked) because I would have been ignorant that they even existed in the UK.

My honest opinion on why people don't always integrate on campus is very out of date (I graduated over a decade ago) but at the time it had a lot more to do with culture than race. The most likely time to make friends at university is presumably the first year. Maybe even the first term. Certainly when I was at university, most white English people spent the first month or two getting pissed and consequently spent an inordinate amount of time in bars. Those of any other background who also wanted to spend all their time getting pissed were always welcome. However, what that also meant is that at the time there was a large part of the teetotal student population that we seldom mixed with and I have to admit, almost all my friends from university were white. Another observation is that certain sports teams were very white but were better known for downing pints than whatever sport they claimed to play!

Working life does change things. I have a lot more friends from diverse cultures and backgrounds thanks to many years working abroad and mixing with people in a broader (and more mature!) variety of settings. So I would say not mixing is not necessarily a sign of racism, but I do think universities should do more to encourage common interests.
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PeterRowbotham
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#37
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#37
(Original post by RogerOxon)
I'm sorry if it came across that way - that's not how it was intended.


So? If the reason for the opinion is nothing to do with race, and everything to do with a religion's teachings, it cannot be classed as racism.


Yes, I do. My opinion of someone would be changed by knowing that they went to an Islamic school. It increases the probability of them believing some of Islam's claims and teachings, some of which I disagree fundamentally with, or are proven false.
No worries, sorry.

The reason I mention correlation is because as children you have no choice of what school you go to. So it's sad that someone will treat you differently for doing nothing wrong to anyone. If you are an Arab child born in UK, you will be looked upon differently.

If because you are a Muslim or a practicing jew you cannot make friends at university, you are disadvantaged from birth.
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londonmyst
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#38
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(Original post by PeterRowbotham)
If because you are a Muslim or a practicing jew you cannot make friends at university, you are disadvantaged from birth.
Are you seriously equating the personal inability to make friends at uni with being disadvantaged from birth? :confused:

There are plenty of lonely people in this world with no ability to attract new friends or maintain healthy two way social relationships.
People who may want friends but have super high standards, appalling manners, health problems, outspoken eccentric personalities or toxic attitudes that scare most other people away.
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PeterRowbotham
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#39
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(Original post by RogerOxon)
I mentioned probability in my reply. Some children will reject the vile teachings.

What you believe has consequences. If you believe that all homosexuals, non-believers, etc, should be punished for all eternity, then they're unlikely to want to be your friend. Many followers are able to rejects the nastier bits, although it does appear that Muslims are more likely to accept them than followers of most other mainstream religions.
It's unacceptable that someone should judge you based on probabilities. The stats on crime and ethnic minorities shouldn't affect how we should treat BME people.
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Scottishlad888
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#40
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#40
(Original post by londonmyst)
Are you seriously equating the personal inability to make friends at uni with being disadvantaged from birth? :confused:

There are plenty of lonely people in this world with no ability to attract new friends or maintain healthy two way social relationships.
People who may want friends but have super high standards, appalling manners, health problems, outspoken eccentric personalities or toxic attitudes that scare most other people away.
l am with you on this one every word you say is a 100% true where l stay in Scotland Muslims will take our money in there local shops and takeaways etc but they want nothing to do with us they close up shop and go home close there front door and count the money l know 100s of muslims as l talk with everyone they pretend they like me well why when l see them in the supermarket they turn there back on me and thats even the muslims that were born in the UK as they are all two faced they go with white girls only for sex and marry a muslim girl they dont want to mix with any one else are they been racist ? Money is there profit /not Allah the prophet
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