The Tory failure on criminal justice

Watch
DiddyDec
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#1
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#1
Defendants, victims and witnesses are being completely let by the criminal justice system thanks to huge delays in actually getting cases to courts. They are all waiting years before ever seeing the inside of a courtroom.

This is nothing to do with the pandemic and everything to do with the Tories refusal to fund the courts, probation and police.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54173891

The article fails to mention the magistrates case backlog which now sits at over 500,000 cases to be heard.

So what do you think the Government announced this week? Proper funding? Nope. They announced tougher sentencing, completely pointless if the alleged don't see a courtroom for years.

Since 2010 the Tories have closed and sold half all courts in the England and Wales.

Justice delayed is justice denied.
0
reply
Trinculo
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#2
Report 1 week ago
#2
Typical BBC.

People charged with possession with intent to supply (ie they are drug dealers) and they're making out the real harm is that they have university places on hold whilst the case goes through.

Seems legit.

Tell me - how quickly would you want a case like that to go through?
0
reply
DiddyDec
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#3
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#3
(Original post by Trinculo)
Typical BBC.

People charged with possession with intent to supply (ie they are drug dealers) and they're making out the real harm is that they have university places on hold whilst the case goes through.

Seems legit.

Tell me - how quickly would you want a case like that to go through?
Alleged drug dealer, they are innocent until proven guilty. So innocent people are being penalised.

Within a year of the charge being brought.

Rape victims should not have to wait 3 years to give evidence in which memories fades and I am sure they would really like to be able to move on.
0
reply
Trinculo
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#4
Report 1 week ago
#4
(Original post by DiddyDec)
Alleged drug dealer, they are innocent until proven guilty. So innocent people are being penalised.

Within a year of the charge being brought.

Rape victims should not have to wait 3 years to give evidence in which memories fades and I am sure they would really like to be able to move on.
The standard of proof for possession with intent to supply is so high that anyone charged is essentially guilty. The loss of justice is that so many dealers are not charged due to this standard. The CPS will only charge if the case is 100% likely to be convicted - court is a formality.

Within a year would be nice, but sometimes that's not possible. It's not necessarily a matter of money. The more money you put into the criminal justice system, the more is wasted. Every single person arrested for every minor crime costs thousands - and most of the time they are released having wasted everyone's time and money and gotten away with whatever it is they have done.

Sexual offences are completely different. In the majority of cases, they are impossible to prove, which is why so few are charged. The reason there are the long waits are to go through every single procedure. In many cases, the cases are only brought due to political sensitivities (ie. it looks bad that so few are charged) but there is very little realistic prospect of a conviction. Hence, it takes ages to get everything together - because there simply isn't very much to the case.
0
reply
DiddyDec
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#5
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#5
(Original post by Trinculo)
The standard of proof for possession with intent to supply is so high that anyone charged is essentially guilty. The loss of justice is that so many dealers are not charged due to this standard. The CPS will only charge if the case is 100% likely to be convicted - court is a formality.

Within a year would be nice, but sometimes that's not possible. It's not necessarily a matter of money. The more money you put into the criminal justice system, the more is wasted. Every single person arrested for every minor crime costs thousands - and most of the time they are released having wasted everyone's time and money and gotten away with whatever it is they have done.

Sexual offences are completely different. In the majority of cases, they are impossible to prove, which is why so few are charged. The reason there are the long waits are to go through every single procedure. In many cases, the cases are only brought due to political sensitivities (ie. it looks bad that so few are charged) but there is very little realistic prospect of a conviction. Hence, it takes ages to get everything together - because there simply isn't very much to the case.
If the bar for evidence is so high they should have to wait longer than the sentence to actually receive formal punishment, if it is just a formality then why does it take years?

Within a year should be the goal, not completely ignoring the problem.

If there is a charge then it should be brought to court as soon as possible to ensure the highest chance on conviction. If there isn't much to case then that would suggest that the wait is completely pointless because there isn't a lot of evidence gather thus it should take less time to bring to court.

Cases aren't being delayed to allow time to investigate they being delayed because there is nobody to hear the case. On the flip side of this it could mean there are thousands of potentially violent criminals wondering our streets because their case has not yet been heard. Free to carry on their crimes because our justice system is an abject failure.

There has been no greater time to be a criminal than now.
0
reply
Napp
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#6
Report 1 week ago
#6
(Original post by Trinculo)
The standard of proof for possession with intent to supply is so high that anyone charged is essentially guilty. The loss of justice is that so many dealers are not charged due to this standard. The CPS will only charge if the case is 100% likely to be convicted - court is a formality.
Not particularly, they will happily lay charges on you for that if you're just found with a 'large' amount. Say found with a hundred pills of MST's (or whatever for that matter) this hardly is proof positive of dealing as opposed to hoarding.
Equally the CPS does not only lay charges if the odds are guaranteed - that is just simply not true.


Sexual offences are completely different. In the majority of cases, they are impossible to prove, which is why so few are charged. The reason there are the long waits are to go through every single procedure. In many cases, the cases are only brought due to political sensitivities (ie. it looks bad that so few are charged) but there is very little realistic prospect of a conviction. Hence, it takes ages to get everything together - because there simply isn't very much to the case.
A touch awkward given the justice system is notionally independent from political pissing around.
As an aside on that though, the police are hardly blameless when it comes to the lackadaisical pressing of charges. There are innumerable cases of them simply sitting on their hands and allowing rapists to wonder around willynilly like Worboys.
0
reply
Napp
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#7
Report 1 week ago
#7
(Original post by DiddyDec)
Defendants, victims and witnesses are being completely let by the criminal justice system thanks to huge delays in actually getting cases to courts. They are all waiting years before ever seeing the inside of a courtroom.

This is nothing to do with the pandemic and everything to do with the Tories refusal to fund the courts, probation and police.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54173891

The article fails to mention the magistrates case backlog which now sits at over 500,000 cases to be heard.

So what do you think the Government announced this week? Proper funding? Nope. They announced tougher sentencing, completely pointless if the alleged don't see a courtroom for years.

Since 2010 the Tories have closed and sold half all courts in the England and Wales.

Justice delayed is justice denied.
Out of interest have you ever read the books by 'The Secret Barrister'? He puts forward a rather damning indictment the Tories and the coalition cuts have had on the justice sector.
0
reply
DiddyDec
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#8
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#8
(Original post by Napp)
Out of interest have you ever read the books by 'The Secret Barrister'? He puts forward a rather damning indictment the Tories and the coalition cuts have had on the justice sector.
I haven't actually read either of their books because I know they will be utterly depressing and leave me even more disillusioned than when I started. I follow enough criminal barristers on Twitter to get a good insight in to the shambles of system in which they operate.
0
reply
Napp
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#9
Report 1 week ago
#9
(Original post by DiddyDec)
I haven't actually read either of their books because I know they will be utterly depressing and leave me even more disillusioned than when I started. I follow enough criminal barristers on Twitter to get a good insight in to the shambles of system in which they operate.
Ha you're not wrong there. Although they are very interesting i'll give them that. His latest book more being a damning indictment of the general political sphere than specifically the tories - although them being the worst offenders, well..
0
reply
Trinculo
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#10
Report 1 week ago
#10
(Original post by Napp)
Not particularly, they will happily lay charges on you for that if you're just found with a 'large' amount. Say found with a hundred pills of MST's (or whatever for that matter) this hardly is proof positive of dealing as opposed to hoarding.
Equally the CPS does not only lay charges if the odds are guaranteed - that is just simply not true.



A touch awkward given the justice system is notionally independent from political pissing around.
As an aside on that though, the police are hardly blameless when it comes to the lackadaisical pressing of charges. There are innumerable cases of them simply sitting on their hands and allowing rapists to wonder around willynilly like Worboys.
The CPS have been crystal clear -for drug dealers, quantity is not a determining factor in a PWITS charge - they want all the evidence wrapped up in a package for them beyond doubt. If someone is seen on the street passing a package to someone, then stopped and found with 10 bags of 3-5 on them - by any sane person's account - that's a PWITS charge all day long. But they want actual evidence of sale, which we won't go in to.

The idea that the justice system is independent from political control is utterly absurd. It's entirely dependent. Dawn Butler, case in point - thinking that if she has a tantrum for long enough, she can change policing.
0
reply
Trinculo
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#11
Report 1 week ago
#11
(Original post by DiddyDec)
I haven't actually read either of their books because I know they will be utterly depressing and leave me even more disillusioned than when I started. I follow enough criminal barristers on Twitter to get a good insight in to the shambles of system in which they operate.
I wouldn't bother. He's just another activist who has been utterly deranged by Brexit.
0
reply
DiddyDec
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#12
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#12
(Original post by Trinculo)
I wouldn't bother. He's just another activist who has been utterly deranged by Brexit.
I see you take the Priti Patel line that anyone that wants to uphold the law must be an activist since they are a party that don't believe in the law.
1
reply
Napp
  • Political Ambassador
Badges: 22
Rep:
?
#13
Report 1 week ago
#13
(Original post by Trinculo)
The CPS have been crystal clear -for drug dealers, quantity is not a determining factor in a PWITS charge - they want all the evidence wrapped up in a package for them beyond doubt. If someone is seen on the street passing a package to someone, then stopped and found with 10 bags of 3-5 on them - by any sane person's account - that's a PWITS charge all day long. But they want actual evidence of sale, which we won't go in to.

The idea that the justice system is independent from political control is utterly absurd. It's entirely dependent. Dawn Butler, case in point - thinking that if she has a tantrum for long enough, she can change policing.
Ah apologies i might be confusing the point with a police charge. That being said though i do stand by the point that the CPS will charge people on much less than a guarenteed conviction, if they only charged on that aspect they would rarely have anyone in the dock.

Indeed, despite it being nominal. It's rather a shame as politicians really have no business sticking their noses in the justice system. I'm not familiar with the Butler example i'm afraid, what did she do?
0
reply
Trinculo
Badges: 21
Rep:
?
#14
Report 1 week ago
#14
(Original post by Napp)
Ah apologies i might be confusing the point with a police charge. That being said though i do stand by the point that the CPS will charge people on much less than a guarenteed conviction, if they only charged on that aspect they would rarely have anyone in the dock.

Indeed, despite it being nominal. It's rather a shame as politicians really have no business sticking their noses in the justice system. I'm not familiar with the Butler example i'm afraid, what did she do?
No problem. The police can't decide to charge PWITS any more. It has to be a CPS decision - and they won't do it without overwhelming evidence. You could be caught with 20 grams of ket, all individually wrapped, and the CPS would call it simple possession, and ditch it.

You surely must be familiar with the recent Dawn Butler hi-jinks? When she posted a video of herself saying that she'd been stopped in her car whilst out driving and it was entirely because she was black, and then went on a ranting crusade to have policing changed, as well as the usual "institutional racism" throwback mantra. Of course, it then transpired that she wasn't actually driving - she had posted a reversed video clip so that it appeared that she was in the right hand seat, when in fact she was in the passenger seat, and the actual driver did not appear by any account to be a black person. Nevertheless, she has doubled down on her assertions, despite none of what she claimed having been supported by any evidence whatsoever.

It was essentially part 2 of the earlier issue with a black athlete complaining that she had been stopped simply because she was black and "in a nice car", entirely rejecting the notion that it was because she had been driving on the wrong side of the road and it would not have been possible to know her skin colour due to having tinted windows at the rear.
0
reply
DiddyDec
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#15
Report Thread starter 1 week ago
#15
(Original post by Napp)
Indeed, despite it being nominal. It's rather a shame as politicians really have no business sticking their noses in the justice system. I'm not familiar with the Butler example i'm afraid, what did she do?
She complained about her treatment in a police stop.

She didn't do a Priti Patel and write to the judiciary attempting to influence their decisions.
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Are you confident you could find support for your mental health if you needed it in COVID-19?

Yes (74)
21.45%
No (271)
78.55%

Watched Threads

View All