Anonymous #1
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Report Thread starter 4 weeks ago
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Hi,

Has anyone successfully challenged their banding and had it increased?

I have raised issues with my FY1 rota as I think it needs to be increased from 1A banding.

I’m currently on 1A banding, but my placement is incredibly busy (it’s notorious for being a terrible department to work in).

The rota is 1A as it includes nights and the average hours is above 30mins below the next step up.

However, it’s not reflective of true hours at all. I easily put in an extra hour a day, breaks are exceptionally rare things (e.g. my last shift was 7.5 hrs and I got one 20 minutes break). I’ve also had no teaching (at all) since starting the FYP.

So I think I have a good argument that the post is actually plenty of hours more than the rota + non-compliant with breaks, rest time, and teaching. I think the post should be 2a minimum, more realistically 3.

Anyone been in a similar position?

Initially I was reluctant to grumble as I’m a new FY1, didn’t want to annoy my new employers, and gave some slack due to COVID. Now I’ve realised they are just taking the mick and treating FY1 like slave labour rather than junior doctors here to learn and grow. I utterly hate the place (it’s very much a nest of bullying surgical knobheads) so I may as well be paid well for enduring it.
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ecolier
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#2
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(Original post by Anonymous)
Hi,

Has anyone successfully challenged their banding and had it increased?

I have raised issues with my FY1 rota as I think it needs to be increased from 1A banding.

I’m currently on 1A banding, but my placement is incredibly busy (it’s notorious for being a terrible department to work in).

The rota is 1A as it includes nights and the average hours is above 30mins below the next step up.

However, it’s not reflective of true hours at all. I easily put in an extra hour a day, breaks are exceptionally rare things (e.g. my last shift was 7.5 hrs and I got one 20 minutes break). I’ve also had no teaching (at all) since starting the FYP.

So I think I have a good argument that the post is actually plenty of hours more than the rota + non-compliant with breaks, rest time, and teaching. I think the post should be 2a minimum, more realistically 3.

Anyone been in a similar position?

Initially I was reluctant to grumble as I’m a new FY1, didn’t want to annoy my new employers, and gave some slack due to COVID. Now I’ve realised they are just taking the mick and treating FY1 like slave labour rather than junior doctors here to learn and grow. I utterly hate the place (it’s very much a nest of bullying surgical knobheads) so I may as well be paid well for enduring it.
I take it you don't work in England as there's no banding there any more.

The first port of call would be your local BMA rep, do you know if your trust has one? Are you in the BMA?
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Anonymous #1
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(Original post by ecolier)
I take it you don't work in England as there's no banding there any more.

The first port of call would be your local BMA rep, do you know if your trust has one? Are you in the BMA?
Yep, I don’t work in England.

The only time I’ve seen/heard of BMA within my trust was a free pen someone gave me when I first turned up. I’ve never heard mention of a rep at my hospital.

I’m not currently a member of the BMA. I’ve so far found very little justification for giving them my any money. I’m reluctant to just send money each month to some people who seem to exist in a London bubble (a capital city of a country I don’t live in) so they can run some sort of club. I’ve seen very little real world evidence of any tangible change brought about by the BMA.
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ecolier
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(Original post by Anonymous)
Yep, I don’t work in England.

The only time I’ve seen/heard of BMA within my trust was a free pen someone gave me when I first turned up. I’ve never heard mention of a rep at my hospital.

I’m not currently a member of the BMA. I’ve so far found very little justification for giving them my any money. I’m reluctant to just send money each month to some people who seem to exist in a London bubble (a capital city of a country I don’t live in) so they can run some sort of club. I’ve seen very little real world evidence of any tangible change brought about by the BMA.
They'll have an industrial relations officer for your local area. There is also very likely to be a rep, both for the junior doctors and for doctors-in-general.

There may be a guardian of safe working (although less likely since that came with the new contract).

The BMA is very cheap / free for FY1s. If you don't like the support that you receive, you can always quit after a few months - if you managed to get your salary up-banded, the (small) outlay is very likely to be worthwhile.

https://www.bma.org.uk/what-we-do/lo...ing-committees
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fishfacesimpson
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Previously it used to be fairly painless as long as everyone complied with the diary monitoring they got us to do. In some circumstances people were paid thousands in lost pay. Annoyingly it was dependent on a certain % of the workforce completing the diaries and things were averaged over x/weeks of a cyclic rota and this obviously doesn't capture sections of the rota that were brutal - and there were less specific rules the rota had to comply with.

These sort of issues are the exact thing bma are quite good at helping with, especially "these days"
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Spencer Wells
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My wife successfully challenged her banding in FY1. It did require a coordinated effort to make sure that diary carding was completed by everyone on the rota, in order to demonstrate that the majority of FY1s on the rota were working over and above their rostered hours, and it took a few months, but it was a big windfall when the cash came through. It was considerable easier involving the BMA, but it's possible to do without. I suggest you look at the national terms and conditions of service that you are employed under, which should tell you how you can start a diary card exercise.
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Anonymous #1
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Thanks for the advice.

It might be tricky to get everyone on board. I sure most would happily take part in shift monitoring... but I think a lot of people are scared to kick up a fuss and risk annoying seniors. Let’s be honest... bullying is the grease that makes the cogs of the NHS go round.

I’ll probably take a look at all your advice and weigh up if its worth the fight or not.
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Starz678
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(Original post by Anonymous)
Hi,

Has anyone successfully challenged their banding and had it increased?

I have raised issues with my FY1 rota as I think it needs to be increased from 1A banding.

I’m currently on 1A banding, but my placement is incredibly busy (it’s notorious for being a terrible department to work in).

The rota is 1A as it includes nights and the average hours is above 30mins below the next step up.

However, it’s not reflective of true hours at all. I easily put in an extra hour a day, breaks are exceptionally rare things (e.g. my last shift was 7.5 hrs and I got one 20 minutes break). I’ve also had no teaching (at all) since starting the FYP.

So I think I have a good argument that the post is actually plenty of hours more than the rota + non-compliant with breaks, rest time, and teaching. I think the post should be 2a minimum, more realistically 3.

Anyone been in a similar position?

Initially I was reluctant to grumble as I’m a new FY1, didn’t want to annoy my new employers, and gave some slack due to COVID. Now I’ve realised they are just taking the mick and treating FY1 like slave labour rather than junior doctors here to learn and grow. I utterly hate the place (it’s very much a nest of bullying surgical knobheads) so I may as well be paid well for enduring it.
Successfully got one of my F1 jobs upbanded from 1A to 3, the BMA pretty much did everything from start to finish. They were absolutely excellent and very easy to work with. They attended all meetings with seniors and recorded everything. Got over £4000 in back pay with minimal effort. Worth the monthly payment in my opinion, it’s not expensive
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Hype en Ecosse
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The only way to get it upbanded is if a certain percentage of people in the department are working a certain amount over their hours and are not getting their minimum breaks. So it will take department-wide rota and compliance monitoring to work.

Presuming you are on the 2007 contract, which your post implies, you have a contractual right to ask this and trigger the process.
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fishfacesimpson
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(Original post by Anonymous)
Thanks for the advice.

It might be tricky to get everyone on board. I sure most would happily take part in shift monitoring... but I think a lot of people are scared to kick up a fuss and risk annoying seniors. Let’s be honest... bullying is the grease that makes the cogs of the NHS go round.

I’ll probably take a look at all your advice and weigh up if its worth the fight or not.
I think that's a very cynical view for someone not long into the job and a bit insulting to the swathes of senior doctors who support their junior colleagues. What makes the cog turn are people who go above and beyond. If you want to get paid what you're due then it's worth the fight. 6 weeks into the job You can moan about thg bma, your seniors who you hypothetically think will take offence or you can be the change you want to see.

Not unreasonable to wait a few weeks to see if things settle and what might happen with covid reshuffle number 2 but don't dismiss things. In 10 years in the NHS I've had loads of pay issues and some unfair ones but thankfully always worked with people willing to make sure they and their colleagues were paid fairly. Most of the time is been an easy fix and when it hasn't my senior colleagues have been nothing but supportive
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Anonymous #2
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(Original post by fishfacesimpson)
I think that's a very cynical view for someone not long into the job and a bit insulting to the swathes of senior doctors who support their junior colleagues. What makes the cog turn are people who go above and beyond. If you want to get paid what you're due then it's worth the fight. 6 weeks into the job You can moan about thg bma, your seniors who you hypothetically think will take offence or you can be the change you want to see.

Not unreasonable to wait a few weeks to see if things settle and what might happen with covid reshuffle number 2 but don't dismiss things. In 10 years in the NHS I've had loads of pay issues and some unfair ones but thankfully always worked with people willing to make sure they and their colleagues were paid fairly. Most of the time is been an easy fix and when it hasn't my senior colleagues have been nothing but supportive
Equally cynical to take the view that all FY1s are automatically wet behind the ears young uns with no work experience and all complaints are baseless. It's also completely valid to not support the work of the BMA. It is not compulsory for doctors to join or support the BMA. Shock horror - alternate political viewpoints exist.

'Be the change you want to be' is Hallmark Card level BS. Anyone with a bit of life experience knows that it's not as simple as that. The cognitive dissonance within the medical profession is outstanding...
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Lionheartat20
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(Original post by Anonymous)
Yep, I don’t work in England.

The only time I’ve seen/heard of BMA within my trust was a free pen someone gave me when I first turned up. I’ve never heard mention of a rep at my hospital.

I’m not currently a member of the BMA. I’ve so far found very little justification for giving them my any money. I’m reluctant to just send money each month to some people who seem to exist in a London bubble (a capital city of a country I don’t live in) so they can run some sort of club. I’ve seen very little real world evidence of any tangible change brought about by the BMA.
You do come across a bit confrontational & dismissive of a shed load of people (Seniors/BMA) without experience of their services as a junior doctor.

For example you say you have never heard of the BMA apart from a free pen. Well that's because you haven't asked the BMA for help. What exactly do you want to hear from them? The idea is you contact them when you have a problem exactly like the one you have. They are expensive as you progress through training but they are cheap as chips as an F1/F2 so try them out and then form your opinion. They got 50 F1s an extra £500 after they supported me in a contract diapute which was then backpaid to everybody that had rotated through surgery in the last 12 months. I started the dispute with the BMA before I even had started F1! The BMA never released a statement that they got us all more pay - a lot of work they do is done unnoticed. The Trust stated they had come to a new interpretation of rota rules and would backpay us. They are not a London bubble, whatever that means.

Sure some seniors are a pain. As are some nurses. As are some F1s. As are some bank managers. It happens in every career. There certainly isn't a bullying culture prevalent from Senior to Junior Doctors on a national scale. If there is bullying locally within your rotation or hospital, then I feel sorry for you and you need to raise this to your supervisor.

I would ensure you speak to all your colleagues and then ask for a review collectively. Good luck.
One of them will probably be a BMA member which will then be helpful.
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nexttime
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(Original post by Anonymous)
Hi,

Has anyone successfully challenged their banding and had it increased?
Yes. Not me but multiple others I know. It sounded very easy actually. No you don't need the BMA necessarily, though they certainly add weight to your request for an hours monitoring exercise.

However, it’s not reflective of true hours at all. I easily put in an extra hour a day, breaks are exceptionally rare things (e.g. my last shift was 7.5 hrs and I got one 20 minutes break). I’ve also had no teaching (at all) since starting the FYP.
Isn't that only 10 mins less break than contracted?

Worth getting paid for that extra hour though, if its persisting beyond the first month and you still haven't managed to leave on time.

Now I’ve realised they are just taking the mick and treating FY1 like slave labour rather than junior doctors here to learn and grow. I utterly hate the place (it’s very much a nest of bullying surgical knobheads) so I may as well be paid well for enduring it.
Its sad surgery has got to you so quickly. I promise you there are good, supportive surgeons out there though, despite the frequency with which you get these stories.
(Original post by Anonymous)
I’ve so far found very little justification for giving them my any money. I’m reluctant to just send money each month to some people who seem to exist in a London bubble (a capital city of a country I don’t live in) so they can run some sort of club.
Yeah agreed. They can be useful too though.
(Original post by Anonymous)
Let’s be honest... bullying is the grease that makes the cogs of the NHS go round.
Yeah.. can't agree with that. It is a problem that is far too common, and doctors who have not yet reached their speciality (FYs and CMT/IMTs) have their educational needs completely neglected in frankly most departments, but the vast majority of senior doctors I have met are definitely not bullies, and I've had many who are very supportive have been very willing to stand up for their trainees.

I also do think that you personally can make a change. If you stand up and insist your rota is checked that will get noticed by junior colleagues, maybe not immediately but along the line. You can influence others.
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fishfacesimpson
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(Original post by Anonymous)
Equally cynical to take the view that all FY1s are automatically wet behind the ears young uns with no work experience and all complaints are baseless. It's also completely valid to not support the work of the BMA. It is not compulsory for doctors to join or support the BMA. Shock horror - alternate political viewpoints exist.

'Be the change you want to be' is Hallmark Card level BS. Anyone with a bit of life experience knows that it's not as simple as that. The cognitive dissonance within the medical profession is outstanding...
Don't do anything and stay underpaid then. Good luck to you
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Chief Wiggum
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(Original post by fishfacesimpson)
Don't do anything and stay underpaid then. Good luck to you
I don't think it was OP who made the post you quoted there. It's "anonymous 2" not "anonymous 1".
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