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Original post by becausethenight
:lol: I see!
Still haven't been anywhere near a theatre so I have no idea how they work :biggrin:
This one then appeared in my reccomended and made me giggle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyfua5CFql0




:ta:
We had a session on how to ICE patients! And then got told "however you still need to listen to them after asking the questions" :rofl:

This is actually turning into very good revision :biggrin:

Another legendary video!
As I say, we have SOOOO many med students/trainees at the minute, I spend my day saying "........and ICE.......?"
But listening to the patients??? Come on, we have to be realistic......! Next someone will suggest you address their ICE!
Original post by Medicine_is_hard
Would it be classed as illegal? And it says to inform the patient and work with them when disclosing something.

What they've done is illegal, but do doctors have a duty to report something just because it's illegal? Read this bit of what ecolier linked about what it means for disclosure to be 'required by law' in this context: https://www.gmc-uk.org/ethical-guidance/ethical-guidance-for-doctors/confidentiality/disclosing-patients-personal-information-a-framework#paragraph-17
Do you think the situation would be different if the patient said he had illegal fatal poisons which he intended to use on others, for example?
Original post by Medicine_is_hard
Would it be classed as illegal? And it says to inform the patient and work with them when disclosing something.

Pretty sure it is illegal, but are we the Police? Are you seeing this person in a professional role? If so, a) why are you going through their belongings and b) do they have a right to expect confidentiality from a Dr?
If you just see some idiot snorting coke at a nightclub, that is a slightly different scenario
Original post by GANFYD
Another legendary video!
As I say, we have SOOOO many med students/trainees at the minute, I spend my day saying "........and ICE.......?"
But listening to the patients??? Come on, we have to be realistic......! Next someone will suggest you address their ICE!

Are they first years? My GP hasn't mentioned ICE, but we have a meeting after morning clinic where we describe the patients we saw and after each one he asked us "do you think this consultation was an example of shared decision making"!

We're meant to address the ICE? Not just write a reflection on how well we ICEed a patient???
Original post by becausethenight
Are they first years? My GP hasn't mentioned ICE, but we have a meeting after morning clinic where we describe the patients we saw and after each one he asked us "do you think this consultation was an example of shared decision making"!

We're meant to address the ICE? Not just write a reflection on how well we ICEed a patient???

We have 4th and 5th year med students and a GPR at the minute.
ICE and shared decision making, along with Calgary-Cambridge are things I talk about in my sleep at the minute. The actual "medicine" is the easy bit :smile:

Reflection is key. I often reflect how far away I was from meeting a patients expectations :lol:
Original post by GANFYD
We have 4th and 5th year med students and a GPR at the minute.
ICE and shared decision making, along with Calgary-Cambridge are things I talk about in my sleep at the minute. The actual "medicine" is the easy bit :smile:

Reflection is key. I often reflect how far away I was from meeting a patients expectations :lol:

The 4th and 5th years actually get to do things, right :biggrin:
Right now, for us it feels like the opposite - saying "what do you think about that" is easy, the concept of diagnosing someone is terrifying! :lol:

Do you write reflections, or do you just reflect on it with colleagues/in your head? We have written reflections to "pass" our placement module, it's oddly intimidating
Original post by becausethenight
The 4th and 5th years actually get to do things, right :biggrin:
Right now, for us it feels like the opposite - saying "what do you think about that" is easy, the concept of diagnosing someone is terrifying! :lol:

Do you write reflections, or do you just reflect on it with colleagues/in your head? We have written reflections to "pass" our placement module, it's oddly intimidating

They are running parallel surgeries, so phoning or seeing patients, taking a history and examining them, coming up with differential diagnoses and treatment plans and then we discuss it/see the patient together. So pretty busy. My 4th years did a Care Home Ward Round with me supervising this week!!

We have to write refective pieces for our appraisal "On reflection, the time spent on this Zoom meeting could have been more usefully used elsewhere" or "this has made it even clearer to me that e-learning is not a useful learning style for me".
I prefer CBD reflection - learn far more from peer review about actual patients than listening to someone drone on about stuff I could have read and learned in a tenth of the time. PUNS and DENS is my favoured approach
Original post by becausethenight
And today's question of the day is *drumroll*:

You're a GP working in a rural practice. Your patient today is a 65yo man who has come to see you about his knee pain. He has had osteoarthritis in his right knee for several years and was happy to manage with painkillers, but it's now interfering with his ability to work as a dairy farmer.

You assess the patient and conclude that his best option would probably be a knee replacement. However, he's a heavy smoker and probably wouldn't be a suitable candidate for surgery unless he quits smoking. When you tell him this, he refuses to quit and becomes angry, saying that he doesn't care about the risks and needs the surgery.

How would you deal with this situation?

n.b: you can always ask the interviewer questions if you're unsure of what something means!

One of the most important things imo, apart from standing true to my principle, is to be compassionate when talking to the patient. It is important to be caring and understanding so as to strengthen the patient-doctor relationship since all my decisions will be shared with the patient and by strengthening our relationship, it would be easier to understand his situation better as he would be more willing to share. It would be also easier to convince him of changing his habits probably - hence, I would make sure to try and understand his situation and validate his concerns, understanding the reason for him not wanting to quit smoking.

Maybe I could then offer solutions that tackle his concerns of quitting smoking. If he needs further support with his job (farming), I could offer certain support options or converse with those who could help. If he is scared that he would fail, I could offer him reassurance and trust. However, I would make sure to remind myself and tell him that the decision ultimately lies with him (patient autonomy is one of the four pillars of medicine) as long as I make clear of all the risks of the surgeries and my suggestion of what he should do (quit smoking). Informing him of all the risks it would pose on his health (of the surgery itself or of him not quitting smoking and not getting treated) would allow him to make an informed decision. If he doesn't want to quit smoking, it's his decision. However, I definitely would not be pressured into giving him the surgery if he is adamant to not quit because my professionalism requires me to follow the rules - he would not be a suitable candidate for surgery if he remains a heavy smoker. That is simply non-maleficence for the patient. While he has the autonomy to decline to quit smoking, I have to make clear that if he doesn't quit smoking, he doesn't get the surgery, (albeit politely).
Hi guys :smile:

I was going through some interview questions and many people suggest to link back the question to medicine. While this may seem appropriate during questions on work ex/voluntary work, is it necessary to do that for every question?

For example; if the questions asks for my greatest strength, and I say perseverance, would I have to go on to say that perseverance is a key attribute in doctors? The example I read elaborated:
"I saw perseverance in doctors when a doctor attempted to take some blood from the vein of a patient and didn’t succeed the first time around. He didn’t give up but tried again and again."

This example seems sort of unnatural/not very significant. Should I always try to link it back to medicine like the example has done?
Original post by qwert7890
Hi guys :smile:

I was going through some interview questions and many people suggest to link back the question to medicine. While this may seem appropriate during questions on work ex/voluntary work, is it necessary to do that for every question?

For example; if the questions asks for my greatest strength, and I say perseverance, would I have to go on to say that perseverance is a key attribute in doctors? The example I read elaborated:
"I saw perseverance in doctors when a doctor attempted to take some blood from the vein of a patient and didn’t succeed the first time around. He didn’t give up but tried again and again."

This example seems sort of unnatural/not very significant. Should I always try to link it back to medicine like the example has done?

Yo that vein example doesn't seem like a good thing to be doing :biggrin:
Original post by qwert7890
..."I saw perseverance in doctors when a doctor attempted to take some blood from the vein of a patient and didn’t succeed the first time around. He didn’t give up but tried again and again."


This is not a good example as @Bootleg22 said. In actual fact this was identified as a problem with a junior doctor (I was the same grade as them at the time) who I worked with when they tried 9 times taking blood from a patient without success.

I was literally just 5 steps away doing paperwork and they could have asked for my help (or help from anyone else).

Remember that asking for help is really important as a medical student / junior doctor (or even senior doctor!). You will never know everything and someone will always know more than you - so don't be afraid to do that and definitely don't use this example.


An example for "good perseverance" would be failing to get into medical school the first time, reapplying and then getting in (it may take two, or three times!); same with not securing a competitive specialty like neurosurgery - take a year out and reapply.

This example seems sort of unnatural/not very significant. Should I always try to link it back to medicine like the example has done?


You don't necessarily have to link it back to Medicine. Just make sure it's not morally / legally wrong :lol:


Post originally created by ecolier.
(edited 3 years ago)
Haha that makes sense. I read that as an exemplar answer in Medify! They’re getting increasingly harder to trust.
Original post by qwert7890
Haha that makes sense. I read that as an exemplar answer in Medify! They’re getting increasingly harder to trust.


Well trying to take blood twice or three times is acceptable, esepcially if it's in the middle of the night, you're on your own and the patient is really really unwell. So it's balance I guess - if you can justify it then potentially it could work.

But reapply to medical school after failing to get in the first time is definitely a better example than retrying taking blood, in my opinion (it scores you points for dedication to the vocation too!).

P.S. In real life, practically there will be times when you have to keep trying and retrying taking blood. Hopefully someone will be there to help you or have a "second look" but there may not always be!


Post originally created by ecolier.
Reply 593
Original post by qwert7890
Hi guys :smile:

I was going through some interview questions and many people suggest to link back the question to medicine. While this may seem appropriate during questions on work ex/voluntary work, is it necessary to do that for every question?

For example; if the questions asks for my greatest strength, and I say perseverance, would I have to go on to say that perseverance is a key attribute in doctors? The example I read elaborated:
"I saw perseverance in doctors when a doctor attempted to take some blood from the vein of a patient and didn’t succeed the first time around. He didn’t give up but tried again and again."

This example seems sort of unnatural/not very significant. Should I always try to link it back to medicine like the example has done?

As others said i wouldn't go ahead with that example. It may be compromising on patient safety and can inadvertently result in the patient developing a needle phobia
Original post by qwert7890
Haha that makes sense. I read that as an exemplar answer in Medify! They’re getting increasingly harder to trust.

Have you purchased the Medify interview package?
If so, how is it?
Original post by becausethenight
What they've done is illegal, but do doctors have a duty to report something just because it's illegal? Read this bit of what ecolier linked about what it means for disclosure to be 'required by law' in this context: https://www.gmc-uk.org/ethical-guidance/ethical-guidance-for-doctors/confidentiality/disclosing-patients-personal-information-a-framework#paragraph-17
Do you think the situation would be different if the patient said he had illegal fatal poisons which he intended to use on others, for example?

Yes because there is intent to harm. Thank you
Original post by Bootleg22
Have you purchased the Medify interview package?
If so, how is it?

I’m still on the introductory sections, but it seems okay.

The reason I’ve bought it so that I have a ready made wealth of topics. Their knowledge bank is good, and tells you how to deal with particular scenarios. I’ll update you when I have read a little more :smile:
Original post by qwert7890
I’m still on the introductory sections, but it seems okay.

The reason I’ve bought it so that I have a ready made wealth of topics. Their knowledge bank is good, and tells you how to deal with particular scenarios. I’ll update you when I have read a little more :smile:

Ok, thanks
Original post by AaronBurrSir
This one is interesting, if a child had a serious genetic (recessive mutation) and after mapping both parents and the child's genome they find out that the father is not the father of the child. What would you do?

I would probably discuss that I either have to break the confidentiality of the mother (not telling her husband that the child is not his) or break the autonomy of the father ( he has a right to know if he has such a recessive mutation and that if he does not have it then he should know that any child he has can only be a carrier or not be affected - assuming that the mutation does not occur for the first time in one of his children - statistically v unlikely).

This, however, would be a MDT decision and I would definitely explore it with more senior medical professionals (like my consultant supervisor) asking for guidance as well as consulting any hospital policy and the GMC guidance.

However, I would personally lean towards informing the father (however, I would ask the mother in private if she will tell her partner first, explaining that if she doesn't I will inform him - and give her time to tell him if he wishes) for a few reasons: a) If the father later finds out (even months/years later) he could feel betrayed which could erode a doctor-patient relationship - which could have serious consequences down the line. b) The importance of giving the father the information to make assessments based on his own health and genetics - he could choose to never have children again for example.
I believe this outweighs the mothers confidentiality - and the trust that the mother could loose in me as a doctor (assuming that she is informed i will tell her before hand and that also this is handled in a discreet and sensitive manner - it is likely going to be an emotional and (possibly anger fuelled) situation that as a doctor I should attempt to handle carefully without judging the mother.

Have I missed any points? Please let me know if you have any feedback!

I think we can add in this point for the benefit of speaking to the mum first:

Maybe the father already knew that he isn't the biological father. As such, by speaking to the mum first, we can seek clarity.

Because in the entire scenario, we are assuming that the father doesn't know that he is not the biological father.
Sorry to interrupt. I had a question regarding patient autonomy.
I was reading medical ethics on medic portal and found a question.
Essentially the patient was hurt(Blunt Trauma) but felt fine so didn't want any treatment and wanted to leave.
Since the patient's choice could put himself at harm, should we override autonomy ??

BTW great discussion so far on this thread.

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