Turn on thread page Beta

I Detest the Veil. watch

Announcements
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    17
    First of all I've nothing against the religion of Islam, and from my rudimentary glances at the Qu'ran I don't think it inherently more oppressive or violent than any other religion

    The veil has no place in modern Britain. It's a social barrier and gives the notions of community cohesion and integration a firm kick in the teeth. I believe it nigh impossible for a fully veiled woman to become integrated into British society. When talking to a hijabi (and even more so the niqab, on which my feelings are this thread x1000), you participate in an unequal exchange. While she can see your body language, your subconscious mannerisms and non-verbal communication, you cannot see hers. A great deal of communication is lost this way, and thus teachers or other jobs that include a lot of communication should be closed to women who insist on wearing the veil.

    The entire premise of wearing it is horrible - if a man sees a bit o' leg, he cannot suppress the sexual impulse he feels. Therefore the onus is on the woman to cover up to stop them from being sexually assaulted. This is horrific, as it passes the buck of responsibility for sexual assaults/rapes from the man to the woman. If you get raped, it's your fault because you aren't covering up your ears and neck. In 21st century Britain; all men are not rapists and don't deserve to be treated as such.

    Thirdly, the idea of the veil is not selfish as it inhibits communication, it's plain masochistic. Wearing the veil does not enable you to enjoy life to its full extent. If your ears are covered up and you're swamped in a black shawl the whole time, summertime can't be much fun, can it? The idea that a huge strata of society encourages the idea of giving these women a debilitated life from a young age sickens me. It's akin to chopping your 13 year old daughter's hand off. I've seen children as young as 7 or 8 in the hijab. This is child cruelty, and is also based on the premise that people may gain sexual gratification from the sight of an uncovered 7 year old's head, a pretty sickening idea. In the age that we live in, it's desperately sad that people don't trust their fellow human enough to expose their hair to them.

    In an age of supposed equal rights and freedoms for all, the expectation of the female gender to cover themselves up because a man's urges cannot be tamed sickens me. I'm sure people will run out to say 'you can't stop people doing it' will come out. I agree that it shouldn't be banned in public, but I don't think it's acceptable in schools or workplaces and should be disallowed just as wearing a hoodie or sunglasses would be. The emancipation of women evidently still has a long way to go.

    I've left the theological side of this debate alone because I don't know enough about it, but I don't think the veil is explicitly required in Islam.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    you have some good points there, though i imagine you might get some strong opinions back. i do believe that it is unfair on both a man and woman to expect them to be arroused by another just because you can see skin. seeing the arm of someone doesnt turn me on ... maybe thats just me. me and my muslim friend joke about it because he says that you are not to see them without the full veil on untill after marriage and she might not be anythin you expected lol im expectin some now to have an onslaught against me for something ive said, but what has been said isnt racist nor against any religion.
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    The emancipation of women, wearing the veil equals to masochism? I understand why it might annoy you from a feminist point of view but aren't YOU subjugating women by saying what they can or can't do?

    Taking a simplistic view of the veil is well and easy, as is saying its oppressing women but what gives YOU the right to dictate whether or not it allows women to enjoy life to the full extent?

    Limiting a woman's choice by not allowing her to wear the veil is not liberating her rights, its oppressing her freedom of choice and equal rights.

    I agree that it shouldn't be forced into women and it IS forced to some by their parents, etc ... but to generalize and say that all women are forced to wear the veil, such simplistic views about women being passive recipients of whatever law we throw their way is incorrect and if your speaking from a feminist view point, I don't see this as being much different than a radical feminist telling women they can't have men in their lives or be housewives as both are equally sexist.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    17
    (Original post by eMJaaay♥)
    Taking a simplistic view of the veil is well and easy, as is saying its oppressing women but what gives YOU the right to dictate whether or not it allows women to enjoy life to the full extent?
    Well, I don't really think the strict Islamic culture that allows for the veil is a big fan of independent thought. It's a completely patriarchal society structure, and the women who wear the veil have very little say in the matter. I know a few, I live in a town with a high Muslim population. I don't really believe it is personal choice most of the time, it's the product of a sexist culture.

    (Original post by Malsi101)
    knew you wa racist
    I think the more racist ones are the people who stifle debate on matters of religion/race by crying 'racist!!/11!'. Read my post, I didn't mention race or ethnicity once. Idiot.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    I couldn't have said it better myself underground...

    I compleatly agree...
    Everytime i see a woman in a viel with a child in there hand begging for money on Edgure road, i feel like punching them...
    (i lie i don't really wanna punch them, but it annoys me like hell :rolleyes:)

    *awaits neg rep*
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    Do you even talk to any veiled women that it effects the barrier you have with them..it's a personal choice..I disagree with forced but if it's personal choice then why should you have any problem with that.
    Offline

    14
    It's a difficult one. I think the veil should definitely be allowed IF the woman in question has given an informed decision to do it. The fact they can't enjoy summer etc is not relevant - people can do whatever they like as long as it's not harming anybody else, and it's not REALLY harming anybody else, is it. You can say its discouraging multi-culturism and that's harmful to others; but I'd have no issue communicating with someone who happened to be wearing a veil.

    Yet it's not this simple: because some of them (maybe most of them, I wouldn't know) get coerced into this, and from a young age before they can really choose (I mean I want to leaglise drugs for instance, but NOT for children, I feel they do need to be looked after by the state to a much larger extent.)

    I honestly don't know how to get around this problem. Ban veils for under 16's? (Given that a sexual act on anyone below that age = prison, that's a decent deterrant) The Muslim would be up in arms over it, though - better than a total outlawing but still. With a growing threat of terrorism, in my opinion breeded entirely by us, I think making this kind of move against the Muslim community is a bad idea. The solution to the terrorist threat is to treat them like friends, not enemies - and this would be a small step in the wrong direction.

    Overall I'd never ban it totally, and almost certainly just not change the situation at all; though I do sympathise with your sentiments about forcing young people into something they may not like.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    How the heck do you know that a muslim girl wearin the veil can't enjoy life to the fullest extent.

    Don't see noone critizing people wearing as hoodie.
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Overground)
    Well, I don't really think the strict Islamic culture that allows for the veil is a big fan of independent thought. It's a completely patriarchal society structure, and the women who wear the veil have very little say in the matter. I know a few, I live in a town with a high Muslim population. I don't really believe it is personal choice most of the time, it's the product of a sexist culture.
    But saying that women have very little say in that matter is completely ignorant. I'm not saying that ALL women are independent and wear the veil because its what THEY want and not that they are being forced to do.

    But we live in Britain, it not really an Islamic state of any sort and many women here wear the veil and its completely their choice. And I can understand how it can be liberating because as a muslim woman wearing a hijaab, people don't really see them as sexual objects. I'm not saying that other women that DO wear skirts, etc are seen as sexual objects.

    We live in a society where the views of men and women both have changed alot. I'm muslim but I've never worn any kind of veils while my mom wears the entire hijaab. I've been lucky in that she doesn't force me or anything and I'm free to start wearing it when I understand the reasons behind it. Its not the same for all but can't you see how sexist it is to say that Muslim women have no choice.

    What about the ones CHOOSING to wear the veil, shall we stop them too? You saying that the veil should be banned is like a muslim extremist saying jeans or short skirts should be banned ... I honestly don't see a difference.
    Offline

    14
    (Original post by eMJaaay♥)
    But saying that women have very little say in that matter is completely ignorant. I'm not saying that ALL women are independent and wear the veil because its what THEY want and not that they are being forced to do.

    But we live in Britain, it not really an Islamic state of any sort and many women here wear the veil and its completely their choice. And I can understand how it can be liberating because as a muslim woman wearing a hijaab, people don't rarely see them as sexual objects. I'm not saying that other women that DO wear skirts, etc are seen as sexual objects.

    We live in a society where the views of men and women both have changed alot. I'm muslim but I've never work any kind of veils while my mom wears the entire hijaab. I've been lucky in that she doesn't force me or anything and I'm free to start wearing it when I understand the reasons behind it. Its not the same for all but can't you see how sexist it is to say that Muslim women have no choice.

    What about the ones CHOOSING to wear the veil, shall we stop them too? You saying that the veil should be banned is like a muslim extremist saying jeans or short skirts should be banned ... I honestly don't see a difference.
    Good post: similar to my concerns with his proposition. However what would YOU do about those people (and there must be some) who really dislike wearing a veil but are forced to from a young age by their family?
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    There's no issue, surely? If a woman feels like she is able to make an informed decision about her attire, then she should be allowed to wear whatever the hell she likes. Personal freedom and all that.
    Offline

    14
    (Original post by Becreate)
    How the heck do you know that a muslim girl wearin the veil can't enjoy life to the fullest extent.

    Don't see noone critizing people wearing as hoodie.
    The veil is very different from a hoodie. I believe this is what the OP is referring to:

    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tis_me_lord)
    Good post: similar to my concerns with his proposition. However what would YOU do about those people (and there must be some) who really dislike wearing a veil but are forced to from a young age by their family?
    Something SHOULD be done, but banning is certainly not the right thing to do. I don't know what can be done but I would certainly NOT be happy if someone said I couldn't wear a hijaab because its what someone, who isn't even in the same position as me, thinks is oppressing me. And I don't even wear the veil or want to ... so I can see what strong reaction it would cause in girls who actually wear the hijaab and its their personal choice.

    The most important thing is for them to have a choice ... forcing them to wear it or not to wearing is taking that choice away which I completely disagree with :sadnod:
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    The people saying that it is the woman's choice are being slightly naive. If man, in the first place, did not place a stigma on bein able to 'see flesh', or to 'covet another man's wife' etc, there would be no reason for the women to make such a choice. And i'm sure, that in many cases, the husband/partner has asked/forced his wife to wear the veil as a protection of his own masculinity so that other do not covet or judge.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    If they want to wear it then just let them be
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by eMJaaay♥)
    Something SHOULD be done, but banning is certainly not the right thing to do. I don't know what can be done but I would certainly NOT be happy if someone said I couldn't wear a hijaab because its what someone, who isn't even in the same position as me, thinks is oppressing me. And I don't even wear the veil or want to ... so I can see what strong reaction it would cause in girls who actually wear the hijaab and its their personal choice.

    The most important thing is for them to have a choice ... forcing them to wear it or not to wearing is taking that choice away which I completely disagree with :sadnod:
    They could just make it illegal for any girl/women to wear it without there consent, you know? For example..it's illegal for any Muslim to get forced into marriage in the UK..
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Overground)
    The entire premise of wearing it is horrible - if a man sees a bit o' leg, he cannot suppress the sexual impulse he feels. Therefore the onus is on the woman to cover up to stop them from being sexually assaulted. This is horrific, as it passes the buck of responsibility for sexual assaults/rapes from the man to the woman.
    What way is a woman wearing a veil to stop males being sexually attracted to her (and thus more likely to attack her) any different to a housekeeper not putting their jewellery by the front window at night? It's just a safeguard and if it makes the women (or the housekeeper in the other example) feel safer, then we should absolutely throw our support behind it.

    Your viewpoint is just too idealistic and not realistic enough.

    Some other good points in the post though.
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    And can I just make it clear, the Nikab, which is where only the eyes are seen, is not mentioned in the Quran as far as I know. In fact when people go to Hajj, that is a religion pilgrimage, women HAVE to have their face showing ... so if thats a case, surely it can't be a requirement in the same way as covering one's self up.

    And while the entire body is not that important in communication, the face is and therefore a hijaab should not impose a lot of problems in communicating, etc.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SofinaaBabess)
    If they want to wear it then just let them be
    no...you have to ask the question, "why do they want to wear it?" if you continue to let them (i do not wish to group all females into this category) continue to believe that why they are wearing it is in the best interest and the reasoning is sound, you only allow them to isolate themselves more and reduce the possibility of integration. especially in Asian communities in Britain, i feel integration is hindered by the veil... IMO, white British people are less likely to interact with someone with a veil on.
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SofinaaBabess)
    They could just make it illegal for any girl/women to wear it without there consent, you know? For example..it's illegal for any Muslim to get forced into marriage in the UK..
    I guess in theory that would work but how would the government go around finding out who is being forced and who isn't?

    Questionnaires and such would certainly not work.
 
 
 
Poll
Have you ever experienced bullying?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.