China is greatest threat to freedom - US intelligence chief

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fallen_acorns
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Lucifer323)
The majorities as always live in silence and fear.
You should write a book - better get the fictions in your head out in some more productive way.
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Napp
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#42
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#42
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
This majority must be hiding really well...
I don't think he really knows the meaning of the word, as we can see by him refusing to share any such evidence that a majority of anything hate their government :lol:.
Alas, he is not alone in being so blinded by hatred for the Chinese, and apparently Iranians (god only knows how he managed to conflate those two), that they swallow any old rubbish put their way by clowns like 'The New Federal State of China' or terrorists like the MEK.
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Lucifer323
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#43
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
You should write a book - better get the fictions in your head out in some more productive way.
Naah... I don't think I have the skills to write a book. I leave it to you and to the others followers who are much more in touch with reality...
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Pythian
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#44
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(Original post by Napp)
The argument can be made that it's values are inclusive of anything that seeks to maintain those i.e. propping up dictators so long as they're capitalist ones. Althought their backing of communist juntas just to say '**** you' to the Russians is noted.
I mean, if it were just one or two times you could argue that its just a mild slip up but tossing their supposed values out the window in the pursuit of domination seems to be the first tenet of their foreign policy and has been for decades. Supporting the dictatorships of the middle east, running drugs to the militaias in Asia, arming the Taliban and its forerunners the list is endless. There's only so many instances you can do before it ceases to be 'deviating from their values' and this is explicitly one of them, no?

Hello Napp

I hear what you're saying and would mostly agree; but I would like to offer a different broader perspective.

Firstly, the way we talk about America belies the reality that America is governed by different administrations with different philosophies. They bring into the office of the White House different ideological approaches to international relations. Bismarck is the godfather of realpolitik in his determination to strengthen Prussia by whatever means necessary. The creation of various alliances were engaged merely to serve that end. They were a convivence and could be dissolved when no loner necessary. Similarly, in large tracts of the world's history, most "world powers" subscribed to realpolitik - including the White House - famously with Nixon & Kissinger and even Reagan. But, at the same time, President Roosevelt was the original impetus & force behind the United Nations and - as we both know - without American support and backing, the UN & NATO are meaningless. To this day, the US still pays almost the entire budget for NATO! In the 1960's, the US created the Peace Corp to offer help to poorer countries and has given huge sums of charity to other countries - sometimes as much as the rest of world combined!

I think US militarism was born out of Europe's brutality. We introduced violence & mass murder on an extraordinary scale in the totalitarian political philosophies of the 20th century and the two world wars. The US intervened to help us. And, when the US did intervene, it did not make any impositions on Europe after WWII. It even offered us financial help through the Marshall Plan. America did not impose dictatorships on Europeans, like the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe. The US force did not force a dictatorship on the Japanese, or West Germany. Not only were they encouraged to become democratic, but the US worked to prevent communist interests from taking hold. Indeed, elective governments may not necessarily be in the best interests of the US but they still supported them. When America fought the war in Korea, there weren't any parochial "economic interests" for the US in South Korea. In doing so, the US ensured South Koreans became an elective democracy undoubtedly saving millions of lives from the North Koreans and their gulags etc.. The same can be said about Serbia and Kosovo and holding back China from attacking Taiwan. The fact that America won the Cold War has meant that the dystopia of Soviet expansion and Communism is a historical anachronism. I really feel that this fact cannot be overstated. Our lives wouldn't be the same if America hadn't stepped in to save us. You and I can prosper and enjoy our lives without relative freedom & security because America looked over the pond and extended her safety and assurance. If you read Steven Pinker's excellent book "The Better Angels of our Nature", you will see that although armed conflict has become intrastate, the sheer number of battle deaths has undergone a steep and constant decline since America was the sole superpower. Most of the conflicts are now civil; and that is a testament of American influence in the world. Can you imagine what the world would be like if America was replaced by the Soviet Union, China, or - God help us - a nuclear Iran!

You are quite right to point out that the US has made some serious foreign policy blunders in their fight against Communism. Vietnam being a classical example alongside South America in supporting brutal right-wing governments. (Incidentally, the US did not support the Taliban - it supported the Mujahideen. Whilst some elements of the Taliban emerged from the Mujahideen, the Taliban's true supporter is the Pakistani intelligence ISI (in their proxy war against India). The journalist Ahmed Rashid is an excellent authority on this region.) It's been ages since I had a conversation like this, but I do think of myself as a follower of liberal internationalism which argues that picking the side of democracy is always preferable option for the US in the long-run and broader horizon. So, I am with you on this criticisms. But, as I say, the pendulum swings the other way much more. Post-war Europe, Germany and Japan received much support from the US in rebuilding their societies and governments, and now, reside with impressive standards of human rights and democracy.

So, that's my broader perspective. Sorry for the essay!! I might be dilatory in replying on this site as I am tied up in some EU Law studies and work at the moment. But, I find this subject v. interesting.
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Pythian
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#45
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
Precisely.

The US may not be a prefect place. Far from it. Their foreign policies finds many of us in complete disagreement quite often.

However there is no comparison between the US and China or Iran. These are terrible regimes, not just terrifying but can cause global disasters.

One is actually happening as the moment. I was entertaining Mr Napp earlier today asking for China to pay heavily for the problem that they created and exported in the entire world, Covid19.

Not only they knew about this but they stopped the flights inside China when at the same time flights continued from China to all other places in the world.

China created the problem, covered it up, and exported it to the rest of the world. It is a rogue state and a very dangerous one.
It's funny given that Mr Napp here wanted to defend China and claimed that we somehow have no case asking for China to pay for Covid19, or heavily sanctioned, when at the same time several countries are thinking of this seriously, and today I watched a very new video by Douglas Murray of the Spectator who is a very sharp author and reporter. His argument is that China must pay for Covid19!!
What a coincidence?!

It is also obvious that the Chinese people are often the ones that suffer the most from this regime which is supporter unfortunately by a portion of the population.

Clearly there must be a talk about this rogue and very dangerous regime. They must have to pay for the millions of dead and the destruction of lives, jobs, and businesses.
Hello there.

The idea of imposing financial penalties on China doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

Whilst I may agree with you on China's underhanded tactics; I also think that a huge part of burden must fall on circumstances (nobody can plan against a viral contagion) and, to some degree, on the general levels of health in the country and some lack of contingency (PPE levels were a bit of a joke). Britain hasn't experienced a pandemic since the Spanish flu. We were caught of guard. There is a price that we have to pay for that, I think.
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Lucifer323
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#46
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(Original post by Pythian)
Hello there.

The idea of imposing financial penalties on China doesn't make a great deal of sense to me.

Whilst I may agree with you on China's underhanded tactics; I also think that a huge part of burden must fall on circumstances (nobody can plan against a viral contagion) and, to some degree, on the general levels of health in the country and some lack of contingency (PPE levels were a bit of a joke). Britain hasn't experienced a pandemic since the Spanish flu. We were caught of guard. There is a price that we have to pay for that, I think.
Have you come across the criticisms by Douglas Murray who is a really good in articulating matters.

In a recent interview he said what most have avoided to say, that China must pay for Covid19.

Have a look online. I cannot agree more with his statements.
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Pythian
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#47
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#47
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
There is a talk.. just no one is listening to your nonsense.

A proportion of the population- Try a vast vast majority. I’ve lived here for years now. Every family knows the same reality.. the grandparents knew poverty and starvation, and now the grandkids know comfortable flats, university education, the latest goods, any food they want etc. That’s the story of the everyday Chinese family, and that’s why hundreds of millions support their government.

You need to understand where China came from and how this reigime formed.. it stared from National crippling failure and humiliation.

Within living memory of members of my family there is the Japanese was occupation, the murder of millions, subjection, war crimes and more.. their nation was at its lowest point. Now, 80 years later? They are one of the two most powerful nations on the planet, with massively improved Quality of life, and a real pride in the development or rebuilding of their nation.

If your hoping that Chinese people don’t like their government, your going to be hoping a long time. Even this pandemic has done nothing but boost support for the government here. People here, including myself, lead normal lives without worrying about the virus, while western nations chaotically fail to contain it and suffer hundreds of thousands of deaths... the situation here in China is that the government has never been more popular
This is broadly correct.

Accordingly, to Ipsos Public Affairs (https://www.slideshare.net/IpsosPubl...report20190906), when asked whether their country is going in the right direction:

China - 94%
Saudi Arabia - 78%
India - 73%
US - 42%
UK - 22%

It's undoubtedly true that China is the most successful fully-functioning fascist government ever. It is not really a Communist government. An irridentist authoritarian, ethno-nationalist, socialised economy with a capitalist overlay is the classic textbook definition of fascism (with the additional bonus of imprisoning minorities in concentration camps).

Like you, I also have a family who grandparents came from grinding poverty and escaped by moving. But, I wonder about the general popularity as reflected in Ipsos in places like China and Saudi Arabia. We know from Maslow's hierarchy of needs that beyond certain necessary conditions; society tends to look for values beyond the basic necessitates and comfort. How long will the mere of fact of growing GDP be enough to lull a population? That's probably the oldest and most alluring trope of fascists: "look at the goodies & glory we've provided you". "Look at how wonderfully rich and glorious Germany has become"... When it came to the Middle East in the previous decade, a lot of people fell into the racism of low expectations.

And, more to the point; where do the Chinese get their beliefs on their country from? We know from various global Freedom Index (esp. the World Press Freedom Index) that China's press is completely state-controlled and censored. The Chinese live in a tyrannical regime where dissent can be a risk to their lives. Reporters Without Borders (RSF) has described President Xi Jinping as the "planet's leading censor and press freedom predator". It says government policies are aimed at achieving "complete hegemony over news coverage and the creation of an international media order heavily influenced by China" ... Overseas Chinese-language news outlets that are not state-owned are blocked in mainland China. However, international English language websites like the BBC are often available to view. But content that is contrary to Communist Party rhetoric is filtered and English-language news sites can be filtered at times of tension. Frankly, I am astonished that the remaining 6% in the Ipsos poll were so brave as to risk comeuppance by going against the official line and Party.

On reflection, it is probably symptomatic of a free society that approval ratings and general contentment is lower than otherwise. We benefit from having an opposition party that can be elected and holds the government to account. The government has regular quadrennial elections so can't afford to abuse its position. The opposition party will bring to the country's attention the misdeeds and abuses of the government. We have a myriad of press and newspapers and journalists that also inform and debate critically issues of the day. We laugh at our leaders and we have TV shows that mock them. China has underlined the importance of cultural "patriotic education" in schools and universities. They have their own Xi Jinping game show. China's Xi was recently cleared for the presidency for life!!

I think only North Korean are more happy with their government. Their approval rating there is over 110% !!
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fallen_acorns
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#48
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(Original post by Lucifer323)
Have you come across the criticisms by Douglas Murray who is a really good in articulating matters.

In a recent interview he said what most have avoided to say, that China must pay for Covid19.

Have a look online. I cannot agree more with his statements.
Douglas is great - but he's talking in principle, not in terms of practical ideas or plans.

In principle there is an argument that the UK should demand compensation from China. I personally don't agree with it, but the argument is substantive.

In practivce, its not possible at all.
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Lucifer323
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#49
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(Original post by Napp)
I don't think he really knows the meaning of the word, as we can see by him refusing to share any such evidence that a majority of anything hate their government :lol:.
Alas, he is not alone in being so blinded by hatred for the Chinese, and apparently Iranians (god only knows how he managed to conflate those two), that they swallow any old rubbish put their way by clowns like 'The New Federal State of China' or terrorists like the MEK.
The usual strawman positions of yours and unsubstantiated accusations of hate towards other people.

Your credibility can't get any lower than that.
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Pythian
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#50
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#50
(Original post by Lucifer323)
Have you come across the criticisms by Douglas Murray who is a really good in articulating matters.

In a recent interview he said what most have avoided to say, that China must pay for Covid19.

Have a look online. I cannot agree more with his statements.
Lucifer,

I just read the article at the Spectator. Douglas is putting some implied weight on the conspiracy that China created the virus? I don't think this is true; and his argument seems a bit too impulsive. I think it certainly points out a major flaw: the WHO can only raise the alarm as soon enough countries detect and report any serious disease outbreaks. Perhaps the WHO could be given greater authority to enforce individual nation reporting requirements? Perhaps we could put pressue on countries to sign up to some new mandate? Therefore, any breaches would necessitate some fine.
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Lucifer323
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(Original post by Pythian)
Lucifer,

I just read the article at the Spectator. Douglas is putting some implied weight on the conspiracy that China created the virus? I don't think this is true; and his argument seems a bit too impulsive. I think it certainly points out a major flaw: the WHO can only raise the alarm as soon enough countries detect and report any serious disease outbreaks. Perhaps the WHO could be given greater authority to enforce individual nation reporting requirements? Perhaps we could put pressue on countries to sign up to some new mandate? Therefore, any breaches would necessitate some fine.
Actually he did say that China is responsible for delays, cover ups, and having exported the virus everywhere. And hence they should pay for what they have done.

It is correct that they have tried to silence those who criticised the regime and that have deliberately delayed to inform everyone else.

It is also true that they have stopped the flights within China when they have allowed the flights between China and the rest of the world which obviously contributed greatly in what followed.

In terms of whether it is constructed in a lab in Wuhan. I can't say as I don't have evidence for it. I don't think Murray has implied that yet but it leaves it open given the fact that another prominent scientist came forward and claimed that the virus is indeed manufactured the scientists know about that, and they keep silent as they are afraid of their positions and careers. And this is not anyone by the way but rather than a very important figure who has worked with RNA viruses, specifically retroviruses as potential causes of cancer back in the 60s and 70s.

It is Luc Montagnier!!! The Nobel Prize Winner for the discovery of HIV

It's worth listening to him. I think if you find the video is in French but I don't know whether they have translated it yet.
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Napp
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#52
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#52
(Original post by NEFIX OFFICAL)
some people do think is that USA made the virus and dropped it off into Wuhan to make an pandemic which makes china an ememy to the world.
TRump hates china but Biden loves china

N Empire President (NEP)
CHN GB
Some people also think the earth is flat, 5G is a vector for disease and that world leaders are in fact lizards from mars... that doesnt make them any less deserving of being locked in a loony bin for their insane theories.
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Napp
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#53
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#53
(Original post by NEFIX OFFICAL)
what does the title mean?
What title sorry? The title of the thread? Merely the opinion of a US Intel officer.. albeit one shared by most people in the west and Asia due to Chinas dictator and his crusade against the world.
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