The 'anti-racism' movement is sowing deeper division

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fallen_acorns
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Azagthoa)
The simple reason is that Black people are systematically discriminated against in daily life, denied opportunities afforded to whites and thus some in extreme desperation turn to petty crimes such as theft of food to feed themselves and their families. We need to bring in a law similar to that found in Seattle so people who commit these low level crimes are not punished. As OxFossil showed it is not safe for Black people to interact with the police as they face a high risk of death due to racism. This happens with frightening regularity in US AND UK.
I'm actually quite amazed that you can be shown statistics that clearly show that when in police custody, black people are less likely to die than white people - and yet still come to the conclusion that black people face a high risk of death at the hands of the police due to racism.. which is 'frighteningly regular'.

I mean, the first part, I actually agree with - the link between poverty and crime is well established, and the link between racial discrimination and poverty likewise, although in a less straightforward manner. The biggest reason why black people are more likely to commit crimes is legacy-systemic inequality.

But then you don't need to follow that up by then saying something factually untrue.

I disagree about not locking up low level offenders though - that for me is treating the symptoms of a condition not the cause. We need to compensate for the actual causes of racial inequality, not just ignore the outcome (crime)
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OxFossil
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#42
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Napp

"Whoops I misread that as talking about the prison population. My mistake....Pray tell what one ‘doesn’t understand’ about the system?"

"why are you focussing on one extremely specific bit of the article...?"
"...lazily labelling everything irredeemably racist..."

Maybe before responding to my posts, you should read your own?

fallen_acorns Yes, the relative death rates are approximately equal, or even worse for White detainees, depending on how the stats are analysed. But I'd also agree these stats require nuanced analysis, and the conclusion that it's better to be Black in this situation is not tenable. However, this isn't the place for that. My point was made simply to challenge Napp's crass assertion that, ""Britain hardly has a problem with 'killing black people'".
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fallen_acorns
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#43
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(Original post by OxFossil)
fallen_acorns Yes, the relative death rates are approximately equal, or even worse for White detainees, depending on how the stats are analysed. But I'd also agree these stats require nuanced analysis, and the conclusion that it's better to be Black in this situation is not tenable. However, this isn't the place for that. My point was made simply to challenge Napp's crass assertion that, ""Britain hardly has a problem with 'killing black people'".
Hes right though.

The UK has racial problems, big big ones, and very diferent ones from America, because our history of immigration and racial tensions is very diferent to theirs. But killing black people? Its not one of them. I mean, in the same year, 2019) that America saw the deaths of countless black people, the British police were responsible for the death of 1 minority... who was the London bridge terror attacker.

Not everything has to be bad or the same as America - is my point. We have issues that they don't, and they have issues that we don't. Its very dangerous and disrespectful to our police force, who are generally really good.. to tarnish them with the brush of killing black people, when they clearly don't, just because their American counterparts do.
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OxFossil
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(Original post by fallen_acorns)
Hes right though.

The UK has racial problems, big big ones, and very diferent ones from America, because our history of immigration and racial tensions is very diferent to theirs. But killing black people? Its not one of them. I mean, in the same year, 2019) that America saw the deaths of countless black people, the British police were responsible for the death of 1 minority... who was the London bridge terror attacker.

Not everything has to be bad or the same as America - is my point. We have issues that they don't, and they have issues that we don't. Its very dangerous and disrespectful to our police force, who are generally really good.. to tarnish them with the brush of killing black people, when they clearly don't, just because their American counterparts do.
De-coupling the British experience from the US one is a pet subject of mine as it goes. But you dont have to conflate the kilings in the US with those in the UK to recognise that the UK does have problems. The 2017 Angeolini review - commissioned by Theresa May, no less - concluded that greater care was needed for detainees in all ethnic groups - but also that, for Black young men part of the problem included, "The stereotyping of young black men as 'dangerous, violent and volatile' [as] a longstanding trope that is ingrained in the mind of many in our society.....Deaths of people from BAME communities, in particular young black men, resonate with the black community's experience of systemic racism." Inquest have also highlighted that this is compounded by stereotypes of people with mental health problems.

Napp embodies the barriers to progress when he suggests that there is something odd about being concerned - "Do you just have some particular interest in blacks...?" and dismisses these reports as - again in his own words - "black nominal sufferings".

This BBC summary is helpful https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363
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QE2
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(Original post by Ascend)
Image
This just makes a load of unsupported assertions that clearly do not generally apply to people who are anti-racist. It is essentially highlighting the most extreme outliers imaginable and claiming that they apply universally.

I am genuinely puzzled why some people think that being strongly opposed to racism is A Bad Thing.
"But I don't think it's A Bad Thing, it just annoys me when I hear about it".
Hmm...
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Napp
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#46
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(Original post by OxFossil)
Napp

"Whoops I misread that as talking about the prison population. My mistake....Pray tell what one ‘doesn’t understand’ about the system?"

"why are you focussing on one extremely specific bit of the article...?"
"...lazily labelling everything irredeemably racist..."

Maybe before responding to my posts, you should read your own?

fallen_acorns Yes, the relative death rates are approximately equal, or even worse for White detainees, depending on how the stats are analysed. But I'd also agree these stats require nuanced analysis, and the conclusion that it's better to be Black in this situation is not tenable. However, this isn't the place for that. My point was made simply to challenge Napp's crass assertion that, ""Britain hardly has a problem with 'killing black people'".
Given you have yet to actually respond to anything...
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Napp
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#47
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(Original post by Azagthoa)
The simple reason is that Black people are systematically discriminated against in daily life, denied opportunities afforded to whites and thus some in extreme desperation turn to petty crimes such as theft of food to feed themselves and their families. We need to bring in a law similar to that found in Seattle so people who commit these low level crimes are not punished. As OxFossil showed it is not safe for Black people to interact with the police as they face a high risk of death due to racism. This happens with frightening regularity in US AND UK.
And what about the vast majority of them who are jailed for stealing things like TV's, dealing drugs, stabbing people and so on? Few are actually jailed for "stealing food to support themselves" as you well know.
Ah yes Seattle, where they formed a bizarre little anarchic squat to kill each other in. Here's an interesting thing to consider though, when the police in places like michigan (apparently at the urging of the black community) ceased to patrol their areas or really respond to their calls crime went through the roof, shooting skyrocketed and so on. So do you really propose that blacks face more danger from the police as opposed to each other? I mean the numbers speak for themselves on this. Blaming a supposed "racist society" in either the US or UK for the communities problems is a lazy copout for their own problems.
No it really doesnt. Britain is not America and its ridiculous to compare the two.
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by Napp)
Given you have yet to actually respond to anything...
Clearly your not agreeing with his deluded pseudo rhetoric.
(Original post by Napp)
And what about the vast majority of them who are jailed for stealing things like TV's, dealing drugs, stabbing people and so on? Few are actually jailed for "stealing food to support themselves" as you well know.
Ah yes Seattle, where they formed a bizarre little anarchic squat to kill each other in. Here's an interesting thing to consider though, when the police in places like michigan (apparently at the urging of the black community) ceased to patrol their areas or really respond to their calls crime went through the roof, shooting skyrocketed and so on. So do you really propose that blacks face more danger from the police as opposed to each other? I mean the numbers speak for themselves on this. Blaming a supposed "racist society" in either the US or UK for the communities problems is a lazy copout for their own problems.
No it really doesnt. Britain is not America and its ridiculous to compare the two.
How on earth anyone can consider Seattle a place to copy is beyond me. Yes, tell you what, I’d love to convert part of Manchester into a third world shithole ran by a warlord.
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Napp
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#49
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Clearly your not agreeing with his deluded pseudo rhetoric.

How on earth anyone can consider Seattle a place to copy is beyond me. Yes, tell you what, I’d love to convert part of Manchester into a third world shithole ran by a warlord.
Indeed, although i'll give his ability, to ignore absolutely everything said, props - it's not often you encounter someone quite so unwilling to ever actually answer a question put to them. As opposed to going off on one about a library yet ignoring the article.

Aye, although it was quite interesting watching it as a queer sort of experiment from afar :lol:
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OxFossil
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(Original post by Napp)
....to ignore absolutely everything said...going off on one about a library yet ignoring the article....
Could the the article you referred to be the one that claimed, "The British Library has an ‘Anti-Racism Action Plan’ which has led its management to pledge that it would review its collections, ‘powerfully reinterpret’ statues of its founders, and put writers such as Ted Hughes on a watchlist because of tenuous connections to ancestors who may have been involved in the slave trade."?

And could "ignoring it" mean pointing out that a hack on the Daily Mail two months earlier claimed, "The Natural History museum has...circulated an academic paper to staff...[and] is conducting a review into potentially 'offensive' collections [including] room names, statues and collections...including the flora collection of Sir Hans Sloane...labelled a ‘slave owner’ by the British Museum in August...?"

If you are unable to see any relationship between these stories, it's no wonder you are struggling.

Likewise, explaining the #BLM movement to imlikeahermit was clearly too ambitious. Thanks. It's helpful to know the level you're operating at here.
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imlikeahermit
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#51
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(Original post by OxFossil)
Could the the article you referred to be the one that claimed, "The British Library has an ‘Anti-Racism Action Plan’ which has led its management to pledge that it would review its collections, ‘powerfully reinterpret’ statues of its founders, and put writers such as Ted Hughes on a watchlist because of tenuous connections to ancestors who may have been involved in the slave trade."?

And could "ignoring it" mean pointing out that a hack on the Daily Mail two months earlier claimed, "The Natural History museum has...circulated an academic paper to staff...[and] is conducting a review into potentially 'offensive' collections [including] room names, statues and collections...including the flora collection of Sir Hans Sloane...labelled a ‘slave owner’ by the British Museum in August...?"

If you are unable to see any relationship between these stories, it's no wonder you are struggling.

Likewise, explaining the #BLM movement to imlikeahermit was clearly too ambitious. Thanks. It's helpful to know the level you're operating at here.
Once again, your missing the point. The #blm is finished. The reason for that is because the organisation Black Lives Matter U.K. decided to firstly post anti-Semitic comments on Twitter, but secondly made their left wing Marxist intentions completely clear which has now completely hijacked the whole movement.

Rebrand it, do whatever you want. I want racial equality, however it will not come under the BLM banner because all that anyone sees now under that is an extreme left wing Marxist organisation which wants to destroy the norms of British life.

Lastly, you’ve still yet to explain why 3% of the population make up 18% of murders.
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bigchungus420
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Once again, your missing the point. The #blm is finished. The reason for that is because the organisation Black Lives Matter U.K. decided to firstly post anti-Semitic comments on Twitter, but secondly made their left wing Marxist intentions completely clear which has now completely hijacked the whole movement.

Rebrand it, do whatever you want. I want racial equality, however it will not come under the BLM banner because all that anyone sees now under that is an extreme left wing Marxist organisation which wants to destroy the norms of British life.

Lastly, you’ve still yet to explain why 3% of the population make up 18% of murders.
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OxFossil
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#53
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
Once again, your missing the point. The #blm is finished. The reason for that is because the organisation Black Lives Matter U.K. decided to firstly post anti-Semitic comments on Twitter, but secondly made their left wing Marxist intentions completely clear which has now completely hijacked the whole movement.

Rebrand it, do whatever you want. I want racial equality, however it will not come under the BLM banner because all that anyone sees now under that is an extreme left wing Marxist organisation which wants to destroy the norms of British life.

Lastly, you’ve still yet to explain why 3% of the population make up 18% of murders.
Thanks. I honestly appreciate this answer - even if you're completely wrong!
But if you think I'm going to spend any more time explaining stuff here, especially stuff that requires serious analysis, you're going to be disappointed. Why not read some of the many reports and reviews that have been published in recent years? Here's a start:
https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/p...race-and-crime
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imlikeahermit
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#54
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(Original post by OxFossil)
Thanks. I honestly appreciate this answer - even if you're completely wrong!
But if you think I'm going to spend any more time explaining stuff here, especially stuff that requires serious analysis, you're going to be disappointed. Why not read some of the many reports and reviews that have been published in recent years? Here's a start:
https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/p...race-and-crime
I’m absolutely not completely wrong. BLM and it’s left wing ideology has been completely found out when it comes to its motives. It’s unsupportable by the general electorate.

FYI, that link does not explain why 3% of the population make up 18% of murders.
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OxFossil
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(Original post by imlikeahermit)
I’m absolutely not completely wrong. BLM and it’s left wing ideology has been completely found out when it comes to its motives. It’s unsupportable by the general electorate.

FYI, that link does not explain why 3% of the population make up 18% of murders.
Youre welcome to state your opinion as often as you like.
Are you seriously expecting me to do a literature search for you? Dream on.
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by OxFossil)
Youre welcome to state your opinion as often as you like.
Are you seriously expecting me to do a literature search for you? Dream on.
So you think it’s absolutely fine for 3% of the population to commit 18% of the murders? You have no argument to that no?

And let me guess, you’ll be one of these who believe that black people shouldn’t be searched more despite being more likely to commit crime. You’ll take that as racial injustice even though it’s just common sense?
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OxFossil
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Have another read...
(Original post by OxFossil)
... if you think I'm going to spend any more time explaining stuff here, especially stuff that requires serious analysis, you're going to be disappointed.
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imlikeahermit
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(Original post by OxFossil)
Have another read...
Champion, so you have no argument apart from your own flawed waffle. That’s understood.
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Napp
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#59
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#59
(Original post by OxFossil)
Could the the article you referred to be the one that claimed, "The British Library has an ‘Anti-Racism Action Plan’ which has led its management to pledge that it would review its collections, ‘powerfully reinterpret’ statues of its founders, and put writers such as Ted Hughes on a watchlist because of tenuous connections to ancestors who may have been involved in the slave trade."?

And could "ignoring it" mean pointing out that a hack on the Daily Mail two months earlier claimed, "The Natural History museum has...circulated an academic paper to staff...[and] is conducting a review into potentially 'offensive' collections [including] room names, statues and collections...including the flora collection of Sir Hans Sloane...labelled a ‘slave owner’ by the British Museum in August...?"

If you are unable to see any relationship between these stories, it's no wonder you are struggling.

Likewise, explaining the #BLM movement to imlikeahermit was clearly too ambitious. Thanks. It's helpful to know the level you're operating at here.
Bother to reply to the points i've raised and i'll bother replying to you, until then...
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N. Auditoré
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#60
(Original post by OxFossil)
#Black Lives Matter is not a single organisation which you can join, hold a membership card for, or a manifesto which you have to sign up to. It's a broad movement of people who understand that Black people are systematically disadvantaged by racism, and who wish to demonstrate solidarity. That's all.

There are a variety of organisations that have adopted variations of the hashtag as their name, but they are not synonymous with the whole movement. It's just like there are many people in this country who would describe themselves as "conservative", in one way or another. But they are not all believers in a no-deal Brexit, the selling off of council houses, the primacy of the financial sector or neoliberal econnomics. There is a political party that has adopted the term "Conservative", but "conservatives" do not necessarily support any of its political programme. Simlilarly, not everyone who describes themself as a "democrat" supports the political programme of the Democratic Party of the USA.

It's not really a difficult concept. The footballers who took the knee did so because they are well aware of the true nature of #BLM as a non-aligned movement with no wider political programme.

It is the politically motivated Right who wish to spread confusion and disinformation on this count. For them, seeing a storyline in The Vicar of Dibley in which a character expresses support for #BLM is a matter for moral outrage. For the rest of us, it's seeing the endless reports of Black people's disadvantage in education, health, housing, employment and income being ignored, year after year after year.
I have explained this to imlikeahermit and so many other users so many times but they just ignore it cuz i guess they enjoy their POV or sth lmaooo, ur wasting ur time
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