stuntmanhy
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Link to statement

Thoughts on this? Seems like a bit of a slap in the face to those who have intercalated already/currently intercalating and are due to graduate 2023 or later.

I'm not sure how this would affect specialty applications, if at all?
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ecolier
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(Original post by stuntmanhy)
...I'm not sure how this would affect specialty applications, if at all?
How specialties select their trainees will be different from UKFPO's criteria.

Currently, JRCPTB will still award 6 points for a 1st class degree, and 3 points for a 2:1 for IMT / ST3-4 recruitment.

Note that this has reduced from CMT's and ST3 recruitment's previous 8 points and 4 points respectively.
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Anonymous #1
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(Original post by ecolier)
How specialties select their trainees will be different from UKFPO's criteria.

Currently, JRCPTB will still award 6 points for a 1st class degree, and 3 points for a 2:1 for IMT / ST3-4 recruitment.

Note that this has reduced from CMT's and ST3 recruitment's previous 8 points and 4 points respectively.
What's not to say it will get reduced further?
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ecolier
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(Original post by Anonymous)
What's not to say it will get reduced further?
Nothing.

This topic is already being discussed in the TSR Med Students' Society thread - and I said this.
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Angury
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As someone who attended a medical school where intercalation was incredibly difficult to do, I do feel quite relieved with this.
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Narrativa400
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This will discourage students even more from pursuing academic medicine - the clinical academic workforce is ageing and in decline and this will only make it worse.
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ecolier
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(Original post by Narrativa400)
This will discourage students even more from pursuing academic medicine - the clinical academic workforce is ageing and in decline and this will only make it worse.
For the workforce bosses, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

After all, training junior doctors is all about service provision, isn't it.
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Letournel
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(Original post by Narrativa400)
This will discourage students even more from pursuing academic medicine - the clinical academic workforce is ageing and in decline and this will only make it worse.
I'm not so sure, academic jobs are always massively oversubscribed and there are a tonne of academic juniors out there at the moment.
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seaholme
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I personally think it's a major shame that recognition will be lost for this. I wonder what will happen at medical schools where intercalating is presently compulsory? It is after all an extra £9000+ personal costs for people to do an extra year. At core and ST3 level, academic qualifications are already worth only a small amount compared with QI projects and teaching - and as somebody above pointed out, these already count for less and less with time.

Academic jobs are indeed already oversubscribed as there are so few of them, but saying that sort of thing seems to assume that a BSc doesn't add anything unless you go into an academic job. I personally learnt a lot of transferrable knowledge and skills which I still use today; the idea that a year's worth of additional education is worth as much as doing a rubbishy QI project, or indeed worth nothing at all doesn't really sit right for me. I have so many gripes with the application process but at least it has (up until now) attempted to reward people for success in multiple different domains. Why should the academic domain suddenly now be worth nothing? :confused: And it puts even more emphasis on the indiscriminatory SJT!
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Anonymous #1
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(Original post by seaholme)
I personally think it's a major shame that recognition will be lost for this. I wonder what will happen at medical schools where intercalating is presently compulsory? It is after all an extra £9000+ personal costs for people to do an extra year. At core and ST3 level, academic qualifications are already worth only a small amount compared with QI projects and teaching - and as somebody above pointed out, these already count for less and less with time.

Academic jobs are indeed already oversubscribed as there are so few of them, but saying that sort of thing seems to assume that a BSc doesn't add anything unless you go into an academic job. I personally learnt a lot of transferrable knowledge and skills which I still use today; the idea that a year's worth of additional education is worth as much as doing a rubbishy QI project, or indeed worth nothing at all doesn't really sit right for me. I have so many gripes with the application process but at least it has (up until now) attempted to reward people for success in multiple different domains. Why should the academic domain suddenly now be worth nothing? :confused: And it puts even more emphasis on the indiscriminatory SJT!
Loads of people miss out on intercalation for this reason! I do agree that this is better for widening participation.

Think EPM should be replaced with how well do on the MLA when it comes out. Medics can be so weirdly competitive and I think if score was based on the medical licensing exam then folk at the same uni would help each other out as they are not pinned up against each other. Less toxic!

Plus some unis do give students a better education/recruit more clever folk and it's a bit unfair that you're 5th decile at your uni when you could have come 1st at another. Need to be compared across the whole playing field, just like how the SJT is.
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Helenia
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(Original post by seaholme)
I personally think it's a major shame that recognition will be lost for this. I wonder what will happen at medical schools where intercalating is presently compulsory? It is after all an extra £9000+ personal costs for people to do an extra year. At core and ST3 level, academic qualifications are already worth only a small amount compared with QI projects and teaching - and as somebody above pointed out, these already count for less and less with time.

Academic jobs are indeed already oversubscribed as there are so few of them, but saying that sort of thing seems to assume that a BSc doesn't add anything unless you go into an academic job. I personally learnt a lot of transferrable knowledge and skills which I still use today; the idea that a year's worth of additional education is worth as much as doing a rubbishy QI project, or indeed worth nothing at all doesn't really sit right for me. I have so many gripes with the application process but at least it has (up until now) attempted to reward people for success in multiple different domains. Why should the academic domain suddenly now be worth nothing? :confused: And it puts even more emphasis on the indiscriminatory SJT!
I agree that it's a shame it's being taken away completely. So much of the CV-building stuff we're expected to do alongside our actual job is box ticking rubbish, it irks me that it scores more than actual qualifications that have taken time and effort.
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ecolier
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(Original post by seaholme)
...It is after all an extra £9000+ personal costs for people to do an extra year...
It's not just this, anyone who takes a year out will potentially lose out on a years' income as a senior GP / consultant which could be > £100,000.
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seaholme
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(Original post by Anonymous)
Loads of people miss out on intercalation for this reason! I do agree that this is better for widening participation.
Isn't this a bit of a perverse way of thinking? Given student loans are available, so participation is open to everyone. If you DO invest an extra year of time (and loans) in a BSc, you could argue that you'd hope to see some return on it in your career. And if you don't, then you don't, and you've saved the money.
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Anonymous #2
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(Original post by ecolier)
It's not just this, anyone who takes a year out will potentially lose out on a years' income as a senior GP / consultant which could be > £100,000.
Is it really though? So that would mean people which did biomed then med lost out on £300k + 27k tuition fees, would that be correct to say?
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ecolier
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(Original post by Anonymous)
Is it really though? So that would mean people which did biomed then med lost out on £300k + 27k tuition fees, would that be correct to say?
Simply put: because everyone has to work the junior doctor years - so the time you "lost out" will be the senior GP / consultant years.

You could say that an FY1 who started working at 23 may be more inclined to retire earlier than one who started being an FY1 at 26 - but who knows?
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Anonymous #1
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(Original post by seaholme)
Isn't this a bit of a perverse way of thinking? Given student loans are available, so participation is open to everyone. If you DO invest an extra year of time (and loans) in a BSc, you could argue that you'd hope to see some return on it in your career. And if you don't, then you don't, and you've saved the money.
ehhhh? what's perverse about it? :confused:

Don't think it's unreasonable that folk don't want more debt on their heads? You can get the return with skills, don't need it for points for FY1/FY2.
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seaholme
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(Original post by Anonymous)
ehhhh? what's perverse about it? :confused:

Don't think it's unreasonable that folk don't want more debt on their heads? You can get the return with skills, don't need it for points for FY1/FY2.
Perverse in the sense that you're essentially saying people who put the extra effort in shouldn't get any benefits for that, in order to ensure that people who didn't want to incur the extra costs (despite these costs being in the form of a loan, ie not exclusionary of anyone in particular) are able to benefit exactly the same as those who did, despite not having done the same amount of work. I don't think you can really make that argument and say that it's widening participation, I mean you could just as well say it's discouraging people from participating in the opportunities offered by BScs, by removing any recognition of it whatsoever. Now that it adds nothing, there's genuinely no reason to incur the costs of it, and if by your argument people who are less well off originally are more reluctant to add to their loans(?) than others, those people are now even more disincentivised to take the opportunity. It's a bit of a race to the bottom - on the basis of a premise that I don't even entirely agree with (that only wealthy people intercalate - that in my experience is not true!).
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username5130988
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feels bad 2 be a 1st year on a 6 year course now rippp
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stuntmanhy
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#19
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(Original post by seaholme)
Perverse in the sense that you're essentially saying people who put the extra effort in shouldn't get any benefits for that, in order to ensure that people who didn't want to incur the extra costs (despite these costs being in the form of a loan, ie not exclusionary of anyone in particular) are able to benefit exactly the same as those who did, despite not having done the same amount of work.
I see where you are coming from. I don't think it's the tuition fees that are the issue, as you say, everybody is enititled to loans for that. It's the living costs that are the problem for many people. I take the maximum possible maintenance loan in London, and it's not quite enough for me to live off. I have to work (I'm luck enough to have consistant work) otherwise I would need parental support.

Many won't have this. Most won't get the full loan either, I only do because I'm old enough that my parents income isn't taken into account.

My point is, I think almost everybody needs more money than the loans provide in order to pay for uni nowadays; for some that will be work but I suspect most people rely on support from parents. Even if that means living at home.

I agree though that this announcement is harsh on people who have already/are currently intercalating.
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Chief Wiggum
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They should scrap the system of ranking you within your individual medical school cohort. If they want to use exam rankings, they should use a national exam.
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