Labour will never recover
Why?
Because who would vote for them?
They claim they are the party of the working class but they despise the working class.
(What follows are my general observations of the working class)
Economically speaking working people are not fans of higher taxes or the welfare state (they are okay with a safety net just perceptions of claimants are not good).
Socially speaking they do not care about any of the liberal crap and many have quite extreme views on immigrants and capital punishment.
Politically they do not give a crap about reform and many of them do not even vote.
This is why the Tories won the last election and will continue to do so.
Because who would vote for them?
They claim they are the party of the working class but they despise the working class.
(What follows are my general observations of the working class)
Economically speaking working people are not fans of higher taxes or the welfare state (they are okay with a safety net just perceptions of claimants are not good).
Socially speaking they do not care about any of the liberal crap and many have quite extreme views on immigrants and capital punishment.
Politically they do not give a crap about reform and many of them do not even vote.
This is why the Tories won the last election and will continue to do so.
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As long as they keep race baiting, as long as they keep supporting identity politics, as long as they continue to oppose any measure taken to deport criminals from this country, as long as they keep shooting themselves in the foot, as long as they keep Diane Abbott as an MP they will not get anywhere near number 10.
They are now a party of a misfits and self indulged champagne socialists which is a real shame, because Brexit being ****ed up is the biggest opportunity for them in over twenty years. Instead, they choose to side with the minority of views instead of appealing to the majority. They are so out of touch with the working classes it’s not even funny.
They are now a party of a misfits and self indulged champagne socialists which is a real shame, because Brexit being ****ed up is the biggest opportunity for them in over twenty years. Instead, they choose to side with the minority of views instead of appealing to the majority. They are so out of touch with the working classes it’s not even funny.
Original post by imlikeahermit
As long as they keep race baiting, as long as they keep supporting identity politics, as long as they continue to oppose any measure taken to deport criminals from this country, as long as they keep shooting themselves in the foot, as long as they keep Diane Abbott as an MP they will not get anywhere near number 10.
They are now a party of a misfits and self indulged champagne socialists which is a real shame, because Brexit being ****ed up is the biggest opportunity for them in over twenty years. Instead, they choose to side with the minority of views instead of appealing to the majority. They are so out of touch with the working classes it’s not even funny.
They are now a party of a misfits and self indulged champagne socialists which is a real shame, because Brexit being ****ed up is the biggest opportunity for them in over twenty years. Instead, they choose to side with the minority of views instead of appealing to the majority. They are so out of touch with the working classes it’s not even funny.
Exactly. They are really enthusiastic bringing all that BLM crap here to the UK too, as though we need anymore excuses for public disorder when our police are nowhere near as bad as the US. And the whole deporting criminals thing? I understand if they have never been to Jamaica or whatnot but if they are criminals here illegally they can get stuffed, after they've been to our jails of course.
Original post by tashkent46
Exactly. They are really enthusiastic bringing all that BLM crap here to the UK too, as though we need anymore excuses for public disorder when our police are nowhere near as bad as the US. And the whole deporting criminals thing? I understand if they have never been to Jamaica or whatnot but if they are criminals here illegally they can get stuffed, after they've been to our jails of course.
Precisely, don’t break the law and you don’t have an issue.
The thing to understand is that I absolutely resent every single one of their socialist left wing bullcrap policies, however, Brexit is such a fantastic opportunity for them. But as long as the public see them as not defenders of the public interest they will not vote for them. They continually support criminals and misfits. The Dawn Butler situation was case in point. Let’s make a crime out of nothing, let’s race bait. Let’s just make a fuss. That’s the Labour way.
Original post by imlikeahermit
Precisely, don’t break the law and you don’t have an issue.
The thing to understand is that I absolutely resent every single one of their socialist left wing bullcrap policies, however, Brexit is such a fantastic opportunity for them. But as long as the public see them as not defenders of the public interest they will not vote for them. They continually support criminals and misfits. The Dawn Butler situation was case in point. Let’s make a crime out of nothing, let’s race bait. Let’s just make a fuss. That’s the Labour way.
The thing to understand is that I absolutely resent every single one of their socialist left wing bullcrap policies, however, Brexit is such a fantastic opportunity for them. But as long as the public see them as not defenders of the public interest they will not vote for them. They continually support criminals and misfits. The Dawn Butler situation was case in point. Let’s make a crime out of nothing, let’s race bait. Let’s just make a fuss. That’s the Labour way.
It definitely is not good that the three biggest political parties in the UK (Cons, Labour and Libs) all supported EU membership. I don't even think Boris wanted to leave in good faith although at least he is respecting the result and trying. I wish there was a genuine opposition party in this country.
Original post by tashkent46
Why?
Because who would vote for them?
They claim they are the party of the working class but they despise the working class.
(What follows are my general observations of the working class)
Economically speaking working people are not fans of higher taxes or the welfare state (they are okay with a safety net just perceptions of claimants are not good).
Socially speaking they do not care about any of the liberal crap and many have quite extreme views on immigrants and capital punishment.
Politically they do not give a crap about reform and many of them do not even vote.
This is why the Tories won the last election and will continue to do so.
Because who would vote for them?
They claim they are the party of the working class but they despise the working class.
(What follows are my general observations of the working class)
Economically speaking working people are not fans of higher taxes or the welfare state (they are okay with a safety net just perceptions of claimants are not good).
Socially speaking they do not care about any of the liberal crap and many have quite extreme views on immigrants and capital punishment.
Politically they do not give a crap about reform and many of them do not even vote.
This is why the Tories won the last election and will continue to do so.
Why do you think we despise the working class?
I don't think you are correct, in particular now we have left the EU, look at the damage the Tories are doing to the country the EU scapegoat has disappeared who they going to blame?
Regards you views on what the WC think, I don't think you are far wrong unfortunately, the problem is labour have been absolutely atrocious regarding getting their messages across. Instead of saying why we belive in high taxation and why it benefits those with the least, we basically say nothing of what we believe our line if campaign is "Tory man bad" "Tory woman do this bad thing, don't vote Tory". Where as the billionaire controlled media and the billionaire funded conservative party are much more smart, they have managed to somehow label non labour views and people as labour people, so anything that is said by them reflects somehow on labour... strange but true. Examples are found all over this forum, most "labour views are spouted by people who dont vote or support labour. Bonkers really.
There is one other factor. Even if the red scare tactics of the right-wing media fail, there is the one that there can only be a Labour government with the support of the SNP, so playing on any level of English dislike of the SNP or the Scots in general.
Original post by barnetlad
There is one other factor. Even if the red scare tactics of the right-wing media fail, there is the one that there can only be a Labour government with the support of the SNP, so playing on any level of English dislike of the SNP or the Scots in general.
This is a favourite tactic now, it's also not true. We dont need the SNP to form a majority government. What's best for Scotland isn't the SNP. Scotland has benefitted from labour governments, all the SNP has done is try to rail road them to be icolated separatists.
Original post by Burton Bridge
This is a favourite tactic now, it's also not true. We dont need the SNP to form a majority government. What's best for Scotland isn't the SNP. Scotland has benefitted from labour governments, all the SNP has done is try to rail road them to be icolated separatists.
Since labour aren't winning back Scotland, its deal with the SNP or unseat Rees-Mogg. Labour majority isn't happening, not in the near future.
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
Since labour aren't winning back Scotland, its deal with the SNP or unseat Rees-Mogg. Labour majority isn't happening, not in the near future.
Why do you think labour are going to win back Scotland?
Labour are the only party to have done anything positive for the Scottish people in recent memories, the SNP offer a pipe dream and rebellion against those nasty english people.
Original post by Burton Bridge
Why do you think labour are going to win back Scotland?
Labour are the only party to have done anything positive for the Scottish people in recent memories, the SNP offer a pipe dream and rebellion against those nasty english people.
Labour are the only party to have done anything positive for the Scottish people in recent memories, the SNP offer a pipe dream and rebellion against those nasty english people.
However, that is not what a large number of Scots think. I think the best argument against independence is the SNP, but I don't live in Scotland.
Original post by Burton Bridge
Why do you think labour are going to win back Scotland?
Labour are the only party to have done anything positive for the Scottish people in recent memories, the SNP offer a pipe dream and rebellion against those nasty english people.
Labour are the only party to have done anything positive for the Scottish people in recent memories, the SNP offer a pipe dream and rebellion against those nasty english people.
Because Scottish labour failed Scotland for ages, Scotland's not coming back and you're more likely to lose Wales as well.
Original post by barnetlad
However, that is not what a large number of Scots think. I think the best argument against independence is the SNP, but I don't live in Scotland.
Alas thanks to Labour ignoring them and the Tories actively militating against the Scots the SNP are, at present, unassailible. Never mind the tories wrote them a step by step guide on how/why to leave the union. Alas, brexit is the perfect template, which even added some extra great reasons for them to leave - the final nail in the coffin of the union can happily be laid at the door of cockroaches like Boris, Cummings, Gove and those who actually voted Brexit - interestingly though, according to polling, theyd be happy to see the union fail if it meant "Global Britain" could take off (i trust the irony of that particular phrase is self evident)
People who consider themselves working class are still noticeably more likely to vote Labour than those who don't.
But this is missing the forest for the trees. It's not that working class people are changing voting habits as a class, it's that class is becoming a less salient demographic in British politics, i.e. increasingly, knowing someone's socio-economic class is not a strong predictor of how they will vote (whereas it used to be a very strong one). Instead, the real and growing dividing line is age. In 2005, Labour won 38% of the 18-24 vote, compared to the Tories' 28%, but in 2019, Labour won 56% to the Tories 21%. In 2005, the Tories won 41% of the 65+ vote compared to 35% for Labour, but in 2019, the Tories won 67% of the 70+ vote compared to just 14% for Labour.
(2005 was a comfortable Labour win and 2019 a comfortable Tory win, so the numbers will be a bit skewed by that, but they remain pretty revealing)
But this is missing the forest for the trees. It's not that working class people are changing voting habits as a class, it's that class is becoming a less salient demographic in British politics, i.e. increasingly, knowing someone's socio-economic class is not a strong predictor of how they will vote (whereas it used to be a very strong one). Instead, the real and growing dividing line is age. In 2005, Labour won 38% of the 18-24 vote, compared to the Tories' 28%, but in 2019, Labour won 56% to the Tories 21%. In 2005, the Tories won 41% of the 65+ vote compared to 35% for Labour, but in 2019, the Tories won 67% of the 70+ vote compared to just 14% for Labour.
(2005 was a comfortable Labour win and 2019 a comfortable Tory win, so the numbers will be a bit skewed by that, but they remain pretty revealing)
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
Because Scottish labour failed Scotland for ages, Scotland's not coming back and you're more likely to lose Wales as well.
Maybe if they just stopped, for five minutes, being utterly ****. This was all totally avoidable for Labour: the SNP won narrowly in 2007, by 2011 Labour were ahead in the polls and then spectacularly lost by having the worst campaign imaginable and a **** leader.
It amazes me that politicians can continually make unforced errors yet delude themselves that things are somehow going fine. Scottish Labour is a prime example of that. The leader is properly woeful, the framing is just all over the place. They have it within themselves to win, they're effectively choosing not to so as not to rock the boat.
Original post by barnetlad
However, that is not what a large number of Scots think. I think the best argument against independence is the SNP, but I don't live in Scotland.
I would agree with that. However there is a good deal of irony in all of this. The SNP have continued to gain unassailable popularity for independence built upon now Scotland's desire to remain in the EU. I can see the SNP campaigning for independence on the back of this, to be fair they've started already. However, the ironic part is that leaving the union in my opinion will be just as damaging, if not more damaging than the UK as a whole voting to leave the EU.
Original post by barnetlad
However, that is not what a large number of Scots think. I think the best argument against independence is the SNP, but I don't live in Scotland.
Just because a few people believe it doesn't make it right does it? Lots of people think Trump has been robbed out of a election win but ....
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
Because Scottish labour failed Scotland for ages, Scotland's not coming back and you're more likely to lose Wales as well.
Lovely.
Care to explain why you believe labour failed Scotland and Wales?
Original post by Burton Bridge
Lovely.
Care to explain why you believe labour failed Scotland and Wales?
Care to explain why you believe labour failed Scotland and Wales?
Here union leader, Paul Embury, explains fully how Labour have grown to despise the working class and are embarrassed by them like some elderly relative and only look to them when they want their vote. https://youtu.be/v7sevFjAMXY
Gordon Browns attitude to Gillian Duffy when caught on a hot mic calling her a dreadful bigoted woman simply because she brought up immigration when he was glad handing on the street before the election sums Labours attitude up.
(edited 3 years ago)
Original post by Burton Bridge
Lovely.
Care to explain why you believe labour failed Scotland and Wales?
Care to explain why you believe labour failed Scotland and Wales?
Put simply they've treated the Scottish and Welsh labour parties like regional branches of the UK party, rejecting much of any national identity there and any unique issues in those two countries, hence ceding so much ground to the SNP and Plaid.
Original post by caravaggio2
Here union leader, Paul Embury, explains fully how Labour have grown to despise the working class and are embarrassed by them like some elderly relative and only look to them when they want their vote. https://youtu.be/v7sevFjAMXY
Gordon Browns attitude to Gillian Duffy when caught on a hot mic calling her a dreadful bigoted woman simply because she brought up immigration when he was glad handing on the street before the election sums Labours attitude up.
Gordon Browns attitude to Gillian Duffy when caught on a hot mic calling her a dreadful bigoted woman simply because she brought up immigration when he was glad handing on the street before the election sums Labours attitude up.
Paul Embry is, frankly put, full of ****. His entire argument relies on a completely false conception of what the working class is, working off NRS grades which haven't actually worked in decades - if your version of class puts a retired bloke who owns his own home and makes residual income off landlordism as being a lower social grade than a precariously employed graduate in an office job, renting a shoebox with little chance of getting on the property ladder, then you need a better model.
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