No confidence in Keir Starmer

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Burton Bridge
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#61
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#61
(Original post by DSilva)
I just don't think he's particularly passionate about anything. There's no fire in his belly, no sense of what gets him up in the morning. Just bland managerial centrist nothing.
100% agree which if you remember is almost exactly what I said during the labour leadership contest.
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Rakas21
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#62
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There's an irony that one would vote at election for Corbyn's labour but not Starmer's. Really shows the difficulty labour has between been seen as credible and being able to actually motivate their lefty members/core.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Rakas21)
There's an irony that one would vote at election for Corbyn's labour but not Starmer's. Really shows the difficulty labour has between been seen as credible and being able to actually motivate their lefty members/core.
The only people that sprout this credibility nonsense are Tories who will never vote for us anyway!
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ben.anderson
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
The only people that sprout this credibility nonsense are Tories who will never vote for us anyway!
Not sure if that's true. Labour can't win without more tory voters switching - especially since Scotland is now SNP heartland. I've voted conservative at every election (sometimes expect for independents in local/parish elections) not because I'm always 100% enthusiastic, but because I believe the labour alternative is worse. I would 100% vote labour with the right leader/policies.
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DSilva
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(Original post by Rakas21)
There's an irony that one would vote at election for Corbyn's labour but not Starmer's. Really shows the difficulty labour has between been seen as credible and being able to actually motivate their lefty members/core.
Not really. If you were in to genuine social Democratic, Scandinavian type redistributive policies then it made sense to vote for Corbyn.

But my main gripe is that I don't think Starmer is committed to any of that. I could accept moving to the centre if he looked set to sweep Labour into power like Blair, but I don't think there's a single issue, bar maybe Brexit where there's clear blue water between him and Johnson. And to what gain?

If you are left wing I don't see what Starmer offers you. I want to like him, I really do but he doesn't make it easy.

I've seen a lot of Tory voters say they don't mind Starmer, but I have barely heard any say they would actually vote for him.
Last edited by DSilva; 1 month ago
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by ben.anderson)
Not sure if that's true. Labour can't win without more tory voters switching - especially since Scotland is now SNP heartland. I've voted conservative at every election (sometimes expect for independents in local/parish elections) not because I'm always 100% enthusiastic, but because I believe the labour alternative is worse. I would 100% vote labour with the right leader/policies.
It is true because these people are pretending to represent the thoughts of people they don't.

However genuinely what was the basis you arrived at the conclusion that Tories were better than labour, I don't know how old you are but let's talk as far back as you can go.... unless you can go before 1983, that is

Also what would swing you our way?
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ben.anderson
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#67
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
It is true because these people are pretending to represent the thoughts of people they don't.

However genuinely what was the basis you arrived at the conclusion that Tories were better than labour, I don't know how old you are but let's talk as far back as you can go.... unless you can go before 1983, that is

Also what would swing you our way?
The Labour party (especially in recent years) is more concerned about debating within itself and identity politics, and especially under the leadership of JC - I don't think they really cared about actually winning too much, I think the left-wing keeping hold of the party was more of an issue for them.

I am nearly 22, and I haven't voted conservative out of any great enthusiasm (especially in the last few years). I never really liked Boris, but I mean the choice was really Boris or Jeremy and basically had to go for Boris.

The Labour party hasn't understood there core working-class voter base (which is why they lost the red wall). I personally don't have a problem with immigration etc.. but the simple matter is their core worker base did. Look at New Zeland with Jacinda, she is seen as one of the biggest progressives but has one of the world's strictest immigration systems. Labour doesn't understand the voters; they would rather shy away from the big debates people want answering.

Whether I like it or anyone else likes it. The UK is a very patriotic country; it voted Brexit; it was more controls on immigration. It wants to be a very different country from being in the EU (otherwise we might have well stayed). I might not like it either, but there the simple facts the majority want.

I really want to vote Labour, as, currently, I'm not too fond of the tories. However, Labour need to find a backbone fast. They need to stop trying to please everyone, and being in the middle on issues and start actually trying to show some leadership.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by DSilva)
Not really. If you were in to genuine social Democratic, Scandinavian type redistributive policies then it made sense to vote for Corbyn.

But my main gripe is that I don't think Starmer is committed to any of that. I could accept moving to the centre if he looked set to sweep Labour into power like Blair, but I don't think there's a single issue, bar maybe Brexit where there's clear blue water between him and Johnson. And to what gain?

If you are left wing I don't see what Starmer offers you. I want to like him, I really do but he doesn't make it easy.

I've seen a lot of Tory voters say they don't mind Starmer, but I have barely heard any say they would actually vote for him.
100% agree with all of that.

The fact BJ is basically a centrist was the main reason the pill wss sweetened enough for me to vote Tory in December 2019.

(Original post by ben.anderson)
The Labour party (especially in recent years) is more concerned about debating within itself and identity politics, and especially under the leadership of JC - I don't think they really cared about actually winning too much, I think the left-wing keeping hold of the party was more of an issue for them.

I am nearly 22, and I haven't voted conservative out of any great enthusiasm (especially in the last few years). I never really liked Boris, but I mean the choice was really Boris or Jeremy and basically had to go for Boris.

The Labour party hasn't understood there core working-class voter base (which is why they lost the red wall). I personally don't have a problem with immigration etc.. but the simple matter is their core worker base did. Look at New Zeland with Jacinda, she is seen as one of the biggest progressives but has one of the world's strictest immigration systems. Labour doesn't understand the voters; they would rather shy away from the big debates people want answering.

Whether I like it or anyone else likes it. The UK is a very patriotic country; it voted Brexit; it was more controls on immigration. It wants to be a very different country from being in the EU (otherwise we might have well stayed). I might not like it either, but there the simple facts the majority want.

I really want to vote Labour, as, currently, I'm not too fond of the tories. However, Labour need to find a backbone fast. They need to stop trying to please everyone, and being in the middle on issues and start actually trying to show some leadership.
Really appreciate your honest reply, thank you.

I don't disagree with you on the working class points and the indentity poltics point, unfortunately we have lost our way a little. I disagree about the need to be in the middle, what we need to do is provide policies that benefit the majority of people and explain why they do so. And quit the middle class snobbery.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Blair's government was far more radical (in a bad way) on social and domestic policy than most people realise. Even their economic agenda was more revolutionary than people imagine. Cameron's "Tories" then uncriticalyly accepted much of this.

This is how it works - labour make radical costly harmful societsl changes and liberal "conservative" governments then come and try and make them workable - Thatcher was the only one who tried to actually change things.

It was in their 1945 manifesto to bring in the nhs and the white paper advocating it was written by a Tory.

Again you haven't told me why I should be greatful for the Labour party
Quote simply we should all be grateful to Labour for providing many things we now take for granted.

Creating quality homes knocking down slums.
Providing employment rights
Creating safety nets
Making governments take care of its citizen's (group responsibility)
And many many other things, many of which MT sold off to pay for vanity projects and vote bribes.

Labour have really been the lead hat walks the dog for years, in many ways we still are now. So I do agree with you to some degree... but not much
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
Quote simply we should all be grateful to Labour for providing many things we now take for granted.

Creating quality homes knocking down slums.
Providing employment rights
Creating safety nets
Making governments take care of its citizen's (group responsibility)
And many many other things, many of which MT sold off to pay for vanity projects and vote bribes.

Labour have really been the lead hat walks the dog for years, in many ways we still are now. So I do agree with you to some degree... but not much
Creating quality homes... what, like Grenfell?
Employment rights are a joke and its far too difficult to sack crap staff who will often just get transferred at most rather than deal with problems
Safety nets were set up with best of intentions but have been abused and destroyed thousands of lives
Making governments take care of its citizens .. unless they're getting abused by grooming gangs in which case sweep it under the carpet

I don't care how corrupt and useless the conservatives are I'd rather vote for them than an evil anti white party that hates this country.
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ben.anderson
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Creating quality homes... what, like Grenfell?
Employment rights are a joke and its far too difficult to sack crap staff who will often just get transferred at most rather than deal with problems
Safety nets were set up with best of intentions but have been abused and destroyed thousands of lives
Making governments take care of its citizens .. unless they're getting abused by grooming gangs in which case sweep it under the carpet

I don't care how corrupt and useless the conservatives are I'd rather vote for them than an evil anti white party that hates this country.
You have hit the nail on the head and exactly how I feel. We all know the tories are corrupt and useless especially since the whole situation with Covid.

The problem is the alternative (Labour) in recent years is so detached from ordinary people, to the point you have more in common with a posh boy from Eton. Sounds stupid but that's the reality.

It seems every election Labour loose, they genuinely can't believe they lost as they had a rowdy audience from the left during the campaign going out for them in big nunbers. Once the loose as always, they then proceed to call the tories evil, who most people voted for. They need to stop calling ordinary voters evil and stupid and look at themselves (in fairness to Keir he has tried a bit of this).

I feel quite strongly about this, I really want Labour to be a good alternative but it's just useless. I have had high hopes for Keir (as per my original post) but they really do need to show strong leadership fast and stop worrying about upsetting some on the far left.
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DSilva
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Creating quality homes... what, like Grenfell?
Employment rights are a joke and its far too difficult to sack crap staff who will often just get transferred at most rather than deal with problems
Safety nets were set up with best of intentions but have been abused and destroyed thousands of lives
Making governments take care of its citizens .. unless they're getting abused by grooming gangs in which case sweep it under the carpet

I don't care how corrupt and useless the conservatives are I'd rather vote for them than an evil anti white party that hates this country.
What a load of absolute tosh mate. All that could have come from the comments section of the Daily Mail.
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DSilva
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Labour now briefing that because of the vaccine they expect the Tories to get a vaccine boost in the local elections.

Getting the excuses out early - pathetic.

There's been a pandemic in which the govt is widely acknowledged to have severely got things wrong and 100,000 people have died.

If Labour isn't making sweeping gains at the locals, Starmer should be packing his bags.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by DSilva)
All that could have come from the comments section of the Daily Mail.
Rather found like the comment section of the Mail than the Guardian
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DSilva
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Rather found like the comment section of the Mail than the Guardian
I think maybe just avoid sounding like comment sections in general.
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Rakas21
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#76
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(Original post by DSilva)
Labour now briefing that because of the vaccine they expect the Tories to get a vaccine boost in the local elections.

Getting the excuses out early - pathetic.

There's been a pandemic in which the govt is widely acknowledged to have severely got things wrong and 100,000 people have died.

If Labour isn't making sweeping gains at the locals, Starmer should be packing his bags.
Tories are defending the 2017 seats where they thumped Labour and the 2016 seats where both parties were equal. If Labour can't take Tory seats on that map then there's a significant problem.

Also worth saying that no opposition has ever come to power without a plurality of council seats even if they lose then in power and Labour are still more than 2000 behind even with the May loss (Cameron left 2009 with more than 12000 council seats).
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DSilva
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(Original post by Rakas21)
Tories are defending the 2017 seats where they thumped Labour and the 2016 seats where both parties were equal. If Labour can't take Tory seats on that map then there's a significant problem.

Also worth saying that no opposition has ever come to power without a plurality of council seats even if they lose then in power and Labour are still more than 2000 behind even with the May loss (Cameron left 2009 with more than 12000 council seats).
All I'm doing is holding Labour centrists to their own criteria for success. That "any other leader would be 20 points ahead of the Tories".
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Quiet Benin
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(Original post by Burton Bridge)
We are our own worst enemy, as I said electing a london centric suit so interlinked with the failing of the last Labour opposition is not going to strike home. Have I been proved wrong?

We needed a pro small town, pro working class, pro British leader. I voted for Lisa Nandy, unfortunately our party is still in denial of reality. It's such a shame Corbyn didn't grow a backbone and support brexit and dragged his party into dropping the unpopular lib dem style indenity politics. Then focus on tackling real inequality, real inequality is only every about wealth, money buys opportunity then we may of had a hope.... however then theres the SNP which needs putting to bed. He had the policy he had the passion and the public was/is desperate for change.

The UK does not want Tony Blair mk2, hell if Tony Blair stood again they don't want him either.
The UK needs Tony Blair mk2. If labour wanted pro working class leader, then Lisa Nandy would have been chosen. She wasn't chosen because i feel personally she hasn't got charisma. Starmer hasn't got charisma but looks like a Prime Minister and probably is Pro British than any other labour leader. I have always said that most TSR members are born in the late 90s/early 00s and don't remember actually living in Blair's Britain.

It was a wonderful time. It all ended by 2008 because of the fianncical crash and Gordon Brown becoming more unpopular paving the way for the tories to be elected.
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by DSilva)
All I'm doing is holding Labour centrists to their own criteria for success. That "any other leader would be 20 points ahead of the Tories".
And getting no responces... only from Tories

(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Creating quality homes... what, like Grenfell?
This really is ironic you do realise the Grenfell tragedy is a result austerity and private companies greed. It was a completely avoidable tragedy that would never have happened had it not been for years of deregulation and cuts which disregard the safety of the working class Furthermore the government is continuing to ignore problem as it can somehow managed to victim blame the poor and a emergency service which it continues to cut and stave!

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...on-of-grenfell

Why do you ask yourself how many people would have died if we had never had labour suitable building homes with clean water, sanitation etc? Ph and how popular would Thatcher of been if she never had the gold mine of what we built up to sell to pat for her vanity projects?


(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Employment rights are a joke and its far too difficult to sack crap staff who will often just get transferred at most rather than deal with problems
Awww yes, expecting employees to work in safety, without harassment, with enough to pay for food and shelter and in security is a joke, much better we whip them and send em back to the slums when they are spent..... :rolleyes:

(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Safety nets were set up with best of intentions but have been abused and destroyed thousands of lives
Ridiculous statement, absolutely abstract of reality.

(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Making governments take care of its citizens .. unless they're getting abused by grooming gangs in which case sweep it under the carpet
Whataboutry...

Irony is.... the right are in power and done nothing about it, which leads me nicely to your next "point"

(Original post by Starship Trooper)
I don't care how corrupt and useless the conservatives are I'd rather vote for them
Great logic you demonstrate there :borat: well you will be pleased to know the conservatives are excelling themselves in total uselessness at present, you must be over joyed. Those grooming gangs are well chuffed :rolleyes:


(Original post by Starship Trooper)
than an evil anti white party that hates this country.
What a absolute load of nonsense, care to explain thos crass statement?
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 month ago
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Burton Bridge
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(Original post by ben.anderson)
You have hit the nail on the head and exactly how I feel. We all know the tories are corrupt and useless especially since the whole situation with Covid.

The problem is the alternative (Labour) in recent years is so detached from ordinary people, to the point you have more in common with a posh boy from Eton. Sounds stupid but that's the reality.

It seems every election Labour loose, they genuinely can't believe they lost as they had a rowdy audience from the left during the campaign going out for them in big nunbers. Once the loose as always, they then proceed to call the tories evil, who most people voted for. They need to stop calling ordinary voters evil and stupid and look at themselves (in fairness to Keir he has tried a bit of this).

I feel quite strongly about this, I really want Labour to be a good alternative but it's just useless. I have had high hopes for Keir (as per my original post) but they really do need to show strong leadership fast and stop worrying about upsetting some on the far left.
Unfortunately I heard many of these thing in working class town when I campaigned for labour in 2015, I couldn't do it with passion in 2017 and believe it or not I voted Tory in 2019. But I'm sorry they are all nonsense, it's just tory rhetoric which lacks any reality but strikes a cord.

Corbyn has been demonized, however he was never the man. I was worried when he became our leader and I was right to be... but now we still dont get it. We know go back to Starmer because he looks like a PM.... FFS
Last edited by Burton Bridge; 1 month ago
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