Aussie vegans getting vasectomies proves the environmental movement haslost its huma

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Final Fantasy
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(Original post by Captain Haddock)
A round of applause for TSR's resident genius.
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Stalin
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#62
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(Original post by Final Fantasy)
I ain't conceding it, humans are not meant to survive on veggies alone - this is a fact. You need a varied diet with meat included. Now I know these days you can get away with it of course with meat replacements and supplements etc. but still a fact nonetheless that humans are not MEANT to survive on veggies alone our biology just isn't made that way.

Our biology has developed where we typically gotta cook our food, including meat, to get the most out of it. Just how we are. With modern technologies we are able to cheat most of this.
What evidence do you have to suggest that "humans are not meant to survive on veggies alone"? Also, note the difference between vegetables and plants (all vegetables are plants, not all plants are vegetables).

I gave you the example of the Irish and how their population doubled twice in a century due to the cultivation of the potato. Perhaps you would prefer the view of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the world’s largest organisation of nutrition professionals?

"Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, may prevent and treat chronic diseases, and are better for the environment, according to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the world’s largest organization of nutrition professionals. Researchers updated the 2009 position paper on vegetarian diets and concluded that not only are vegetarian and vegan diets appropriate for all stages of the life cycle (pregnancy, infancy, childhood, etc.), but they also help reduce the risk for heart disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, stroke, obesity, and some types of cancer. The updated position paper presents a section on environmental issues which concludes plant-based diets are more sustainable and less damaging to the environment."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
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Final Fantasy
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(Original post by Stalin)
What evidence do you have to suggest that "humans are not meant to survive on veggies alone"? Also, note the difference between vegetables and plants (all vegetables are plants, not all plants are vegetables).

I gave you the example of the Irish and how their population doubled twice in a century due to the cultivation of the potato. Perhaps you would prefer the view of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the world’s largest organisation of nutrition professionals?

"Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, may prevent and treat chronic diseases, and are better for the environment, according to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the world’s largest organization of nutrition professionals. Researchers updated the 2009 position paper on vegetarian diets and concluded that not only are vegetarian and vegan diets appropriate for all stages of the life cycle (pregnancy, infancy, childhood, etc.), but they also help reduce the risk for heart disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, stroke, obesity, and some types of cancer. The updated position paper presents a section on environmental issues which concludes plant-based diets are more sustainable and less damaging to the environment."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
Because you can't survive on veggies alone in the long term. Humans can survive on anything in the short term yes, not long term, it needs to be varied. You can't get all your requirements from veggies alone, in the same way you can't get all your requirements from meat alone (unless you like eating various organs and stuff and even then is a gamble). I never said it's not healthy, they can be very healthy indeed. But you gotta keep it varied between the two. What I'm saying is that making a choice between one or the other is more of a first world luxury - outside of religious/cultural reasons.
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Stalin
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(Original post by Final Fantasy)
Because you can't survive on veggies alone in the long term. Humans can survive on anything in the short term yes, not long term, it needs to be varied. You can't get all your requirements from veggies alone, in the same way you can't get all your requirements from meat alone (unless you like eating various organs and stuff and even then is a gamble). I never said it's not healthy, they can be very healthy indeed. But you gotta keep it varied between the two. What I'm saying is that making a choice between one or the other is more of a first world luxury - outside of religious/cultural reasons.
If humans cannot survive on plants longterm, could you explain to me why the Irish population increased from 2.5m in 1750 to 8.2m in 1841?

This is 91 years of many generations of Irish people eating nothing but potatoes, which goes against your claim that "humans can survive on anything in the short term yes, not long term".

According to your logic, it couldn't have happened.
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Final Fantasy
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(Original post by Stalin)
If humans cannot survive on plants longterm, could you explain to me why the Irish population increased from 2.5m in 1750 to 8.2m in 1841?

This is 91 years of many generations of Irish people eating nothing but potatoes, which goes against your claim that "humans can survive on anything in the short term yes, not long term".

According to your logic, it couldn't have happened.
Except that they weren't just eating potatoes all day everyday and nothing but potatoes... sure you can keep it up for a few years at most probably but long-term this obviously doesn't work and you become deficient in essential things your body needs.
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Stalin
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(Original post by Final Fantasy)
Except that they weren't just eating potatoes all day everyday and nothing but potatoes... sure you can keep it up for a few years at most probably but long-term this obviously doesn't work and you become deficient in essential things your body needs.
"Forty-five per cent of all the farms in Ireland were under five acres. Existence on the smaller holdings was made possible only by the growth of the potato which formed the staple crop and practically the sole article of diet among the poorer peasantry."

http://spraguehs.com/staff/nickel_ph...oFamineDBQ.pdf - Document F.
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Final Fantasy
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(Original post by Stalin)
"Forty-five per cent of all the farms in Ireland were under five acres. Existence on the smaller holdings was made possible only by the growth of the potato which formed the staple crop and practically the sole article of diet among the poorer peasantry."

http://spraguehs.com/staff/nickel_ph...oFamineDBQ.pdf - Document F.
I don't think you are reading your own sources... none of these candidates ate ONLY what you're claiming, they supplemented it with other things. Take this latest source for example, milk being a key one.
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Stalin
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(Original post by Final Fantasy)
I don't think you are reading your own sources... none of these candidates ate ONLY what you're claiming, they supplemented it with other things. Take this latest source for example, milk being a key one.
The quote you're interpreting is Document A. Here it is in full:

"But for the greater part of the country, for a century before the Famine, Young's generalization will serve: the great mass of the population had, in effect, a single solid foodstuff: stirabout, or an oatmeal loaf, was an occasional treat: weeks or months separated the red-letter occasions when meat was eaten: day after day, three times a day, people ate salted, boiled potatoes, probably washing them down with milk, flavouring them, if they were fortunate, with an onion or a bit of lard, with boiled seaweed or a scrap of salted fish".

You forgot to add the "if they were fortunate" part, which is deliberately misleading on your part.

"Forty-five per cent of all the farms in Ireland were under five acres"; it takes 1.5 to 2 acres to feed a cow calf pair for 12 months, and the cow only produces milk when she has the calf; not to mention the enormous financial investment required to buy a cow in the first place, get her pregnant and remain economically afloat if she died. Suffice to say, most of these small farms wouldn't have been able to host a cow calf pair, let alone buy one given the sheer and destitute levels of poverty in Ireland at the time.

In 1845, for example, 8.5% of the people holding land were renting out less than one acre of land - no where near enough for a cow calf pair.

When historians claim that "in pre-famine Ireland, labourers, cottiers, smallholders and their families depended almost exclusively on the potato as a source of food", we can infer that the poorest people in Ireland ate nothing but potatoes.

Consider the average daily consumption of potatoes prior to the Great Famine by:

- adult men 6.4 kg;
- adult women 5.1kg;
- children 11-15 years of age 5.1kg;
- children under 11 years of age 2.2kg.

During the famine, the fact that 20-25% of the population fell due to death and emigration shows how reliant the Irish were on potatoes; and certainly, how many individuals, particularly the poorest in society, in one of Europe's poorest and underdeveloped areas at the time, would have been 100% reliant on it as their sole food source, rather than supplementing their diet with, as you say, "other things"; contrary to your claims that "you can't survive on veggies alone in the long term" and "they weren't just eating potatoes all day everyday and nothing but potatoes".
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Final Fantasy
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(Original post by Stalin)
The quote you're interpreting is Document A. Here it is in full:

"But for the greater part of the country, for a century before the Famine, Young's generalization will serve: the great mass of the population had, in effect, a single solid foodstuff: stirabout, or an oatmeal loaf, was an occasional treat: weeks or months separated the red-letter occasions when meat was eaten: day after day, three times a day, people ate salted, boiled potatoes, probably washing them down with milk, flavouring them, if they were fortunate, with an onion or a bit of lard, with boiled seaweed or a scrap of salted fish".

You forgot to add the "if they were fortunate" part, which is deliberately misleading on your part.

"Forty-five per cent of all the farms in Ireland were under five acres"; it takes 1.5 to 2 acres to feed a cow calf pair for 12 months, and the cow only produces milk when she has the calf; not to mention the enormous financial investment required to buy a cow in the first place, get her pregnant and remain economically afloat if she died. Suffice to say, most of these small farms wouldn't have been able to host a cow calf pair, let alone buy one given the sheer and destitute levels of poverty in Ireland at the time.

In 1845, for example, 8.5% of the people holding land were renting out less than one acre of land - no where near enough for a cow calf pair.

When historians claim that "in pre-famine Ireland, labourers, cottiers, smallholders and their families depended almost exclusively on the potato as a source of food", we can infer that the poorest people in Ireland ate nothing but potatoes.

Consider the average daily consumption of potatoes prior to the Great Famine by:

- adult men 6.4 kg;
- adult women 5.1kg;
- children 11-15 years of age 5.1kg;
- children under 11 years of age 2.2kg.

During the famine, the fact that 20-25% of the population fell due to death and emigration shows how reliant the Irish were on potatoes; and certainly, how many individuals, particularly the poorest in society, in one of Europe's poorest and underdeveloped areas at the time, would have been 100% reliant on it as their sole food source, rather than supplementing their diet with, as you say, "other things"; contrary to your claims that "you can't survive on veggies alone in the long term" and "they weren't just eating potatoes all day everyday and nothing but potatoes".
Argument still stands...

"day after day, three times a day, people ate salted, boiled potatoes, probably washing them down with milk, flavouring them, if they were fortunate, with an onion or a bit of lard, with boiled seaweed or a scrap of salted fish".

Clearly they are not just eating and surviving off potatoes, they occasionally vary it with other foods. if they didn't, they'd be dead. Humans can survive in the short-term on just one food type but not forever, not long-term. From the above makes perfect sense them needing the essential fats and protein etc. supplementing mostly potatoes diet. Your own sources are telling you it's not just potatoes so not sure what you're going on about...
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Stalin
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(Original post by Final Fantasy)
Argument still stands...

"day after day, three times a day, people ate salted, boiled potatoes, probably washing them down with milk, flavouring them, if they were fortunate, with an onion or a bit of lard, with boiled seaweed or a scrap of salted fish".

Clearly they are not just eating and surviving off potatoes, they occasionally vary it with other foods. if they didn't, they'd be dead. Humans can survive in the short-term on just one food type but not forever, not long-term. From the above makes perfect sense them needing the essential fats and protein etc. supplementing mostly potatoes diet. Your own sources are telling you it's not just potatoes so not sure what you're going on about...
"Since the potato was the main food, indeed often the only food, in the diet of the Irish labourers during the early decades of the nineteenth century, the effect of this pestilence was catastrophic for one-third of the population."

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/3673634.pdf

I'm not sure why you seem to believe that everyone in Ireland, one of Europe's poorest and destitute areas at the time, had access to animal products in their diet. Given that a vast proportion of the population lived on nothing but potatoes and milk, it would seem reasonable to believe that a percentage of the population, the poorest in society, for example, would have been too poor to afford milk and lived on a diet consisting solely of potatoes; contrary to your claim that "they weren't just eating potatoes all day everyday and nothing but potatoes".

Let alone your absurd claim that "you can't survive on veggies alone in the long term". Again, according to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the world’s largest organisation of nutrition professionals:

"Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, may prevent and treat chronic diseases, and are better for the environment, according to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the world’s largest organization of nutrition professionals. Researchers updated the 2009 position paper on vegetarian diets and concluded that not only are vegetarian and vegan diets appropriate for all stages of the life cycle (pregnancy, infancy, childhood, etc.), but they also help reduce the risk for heart disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, stroke, obesity, and some types of cancer. The updated position paper presents a section on environmental issues which concludes plant-based diets are more sustainable and less damaging to the environment."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
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Final Fantasy
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(Original post by Stalin)
"Since the potato was the main food, indeed often the only food, in the diet of the Irish labourers during the early decades of the nineteenth century, the effect of this pestilence was catastrophic for one-third of the population."

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/3673634.pdf

I'm not sure why you seem to believe that everyone in Ireland, one of Europe's poorest and destitute areas at the time, had access to animal products in their diet. Given that a vast proportion of the population lived on nothing but potatoes and milk, it would seem reasonable to believe that a percentage of the population, the poorest in society, for example, would have been too poor to afford milk and lived on a diet consisting solely of potatoes; contrary to your claim that "they weren't just eating potatoes all day everyday and nothing but potatoes".
My god... don't you get it? Yes they ate potatoes and probably only potatoes at various times - which humans can survive on in the short-term, but eventually MUST be supplemented with other types! What part of that is not making sense to you? Clearly here they were supplementing it every now and then when they could. Humans cannot survive on just one type of food forever, it does not work in practice. It only works in the short-term.
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Stalin
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(Original post by Final Fantasy)
My god... don't you get it? Yes they ate potatoes and probably only potatoes at various times - which humans can survive on in the short-term, but eventually MUST be supplemented with other types! What part of that is not making sense to you? Clearly here they were supplementing it every now and then when they could. Humans cannot survive on just one type of food forever, it does not work in practice. It only works in the short-term.
Could you provide evidence to support the following claims you've just made:

(1) A diet consisting solely of potatoes must be supplemented with 'other types';
(2) Clearly here they were supplementing it every now and then when they could.
(3) Humans cannot survive on just one type of food forever, it does not work in practice. It only works in the short-term.

Also, I'll assume that you've conceded your claim that "you can't survive on veggies alone in the long term". Once again, according to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the world’s largest organisation of nutrition professionals:

"Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, may prevent and treat chronic diseases, and are better for the environment, according to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the world’s largest organization of nutrition professionals. Researchers updated the 2009 position paper on vegetarian diets and concluded that not only are vegetarian and vegan diets appropriate for all stages of the life cycle (pregnancy, infancy, childhood, etc.), but they also help reduce the risk for heart disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, stroke, obesity, and some types of cancer. The updated position paper presents a section on environmental issues which concludes plant-based diets are more sustainable and less damaging to the environment."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/

You seem to be avoiding it, but a simple yes will suffice.
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ChaoticButterfly
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Meat is how you thrive as a hunter gatherer, we ate all the megafauna. What else are they going to eat? Especially when living through an ice age. Everything we do today is "unnatural" when there are billions of us. Of course a "natural" hunter gatherer set up for every human is not feasible. That isn't proof meat isn't good for humans. Humanity has spent most of it's existence in a state totally different from how we live in recorded history so it makes sense to look at that segment if you want to work out how evolution has shaped our metabolism.

(Original post by Captain Haddock)
For the vast majority of human existence meat has been a relatively rare luxury. The amount of meat we are able to consume today is completely unnatural and only made possible through modern, industrial farming and distribution.



Last I checked, scurvy was fatal.
Also Inuits do (or at least did) eat pretty much only fatty red meat as a indigenous people living in ice age conditions. All the carbs and sugar is very much a diet of civilization and look how that is working our for us. We all become fat and diabetic once we reach middle age.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by Final Fantasy)
`Humans cannot survive on just one type of food forever, it does not work in practice.
They can if that food is the fatty meat of an animal that eats the grass so you don't have to.

You have to eat a "rounded" diet when the base of your diet is crappy food that was made to feed poor people.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by Stalin)

I'm not sure why you seem to believe that everyone in Ireland, one of Europe's poorest and destitute areas at the time, had access to animal products in their diet. Given that a vast proportion of the population lived on nothing but potatoes and milk, it would seem reasonable to believe that a percentage of the population, the poorest in society, for example, would have been too poor to afford milk and lived on a diet consisting solely of potatoes; contrary to your claim that "they weren't just eating potatoes all day everyday and nothing but potatoes".
Errr... they were poor and lots of them died.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
So are all vegetarian Hindus in India poor, or something?
Yes. It's why diabetes is so prevalent in Asian countries because they all live off of rice.
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ChaoticButterfly
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Regarding the OP these people worry me because as climate change becomes more apparent their arguments will become more persuasive and will feed into a 21st century fascism. Malthusian is not good.
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Napp
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#78
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
They can if that food is the fatty meat of an animal that eats the grass so you don't have to.

You have to eat a "rounded" diet when the base of your diet is crappy food that was made to feed poor people.
In fairness theyd likely find themselves getting scurvey or some other ghastly condition from lack of vitamins and so on
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
Yes. It's why diabetes is so prevalent in Asian countries because they all live off of rice.
Not sure what this has to do with what you've quoted?
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
Regarding the OP these people worry me because as climate change becomes more apparent their arguments will become more persuasive and will feed into a 21st century fascism. Malthusian is not good.
Sounds like a slippery slope tbh.
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