Why Trump isn't a fascist&The storming of the Capitol was not a coup.

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pickup
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#21
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#21
(Original post by DSilva)
It's a fair point. I would argue thouh, that even without the riot, it would still be an attempted coup. A majority of Republican House members voted to throw out tens of millions of votes from States that voted Biden. As did a number of senators.

That was a genuine attempt to unlawfully stay in power, supported or even initiated by the President.
Exactly. It was an attempt to keep power, disregard an election result , encouraged by / organised by Trump. Would he have arrived waving a flag and claiming the 'people' had chosen him and he was going to 'save ' the US, had his supporters successful taken over the Capital? We don't know.

It failed but the doesn't mean he won't try again. The fact that many Republicans just looked on and/or effectively backed him, is terrifying. Taking over power by disregarding elections, using organised violence against political opponents is the very essence of a fascistic coup.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by StriderHort)
I think people could argue forever over their subjective definitions of terms.

There's certainly those who took part who thought it was a coup. and while I accept that it was stupid and doomed to fail, I feel there was intent, certainly among a significant %. As much as it's a 'what if', where would we be if one of those tacced up nutters with cable ties or a gun had actually grabbed a hostage/s? Again the intent was there, and we would now be having a v different conversation.

I'm trying to remember the kids name, but about a decade back a wee outcast teen threw a petrol bomb at his school, it was at night and against a plain roughcast wall...ie it just looked pretty and ran off uselessly. And then there was the debate of 'oh boys will be boys! You can't use anti terrorist legislation! he didn't really mean it or know what he was doing!', and the court seemed pretty adamant that despite how half baked pointless his plan and execution was, he 100% meant it to burn down the school and that was the important bit.
Most of the Rpublican politicians weren't knowingly participaing in a coup. They were playing politics for their own personal advantages.

There were an awful lot of German politicians in 1933 who were not Nazis; supported Hitler's appointment as Chancellor and then couldn't tame the beast they had unleashed. None of them wanted what ensued. None of them thought it would happen, but they were all playing their own politics.

Go back and look at 1685-88 in England or 1851 in France and you will see the same.

How did Trump see this playing out? I don't think he thought the mob would result in him being chosen President. I think he saw the mob as preventing Biden being chosen President, to allow him by means he would not have fully worked out, but possibly including some form of martial law, to remain in power. It would have been opportunism on Trump's part.

If a Biden win was prevented and Pelosi was taken out of the picture in some way, Trump's rivals for power were Pence (until 20 January only), 87 year old Grassley and Pompeo. Trump may well have felt that he could come out on top
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StriderHort
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Most of the Rpublican politicians weren't knowingly participaing in a coup. They were playing politics for their own personal advantages.

There were an awful lot of German politicians in 1933 who were not Nazis; supported Hitler's appointment as Chancellor and then couldn't tame the beast they had unleashed. None of them wanted what ensued. None of them thought it would happen, but they were all playing their own politics.

Go back and look at 1685-88 in England or 1851 in France and you will see the same.

How did Trump see this playing out? I don't think he thought the mob would result in him being chosen President. I think he saw the mob as preventing Biden being chosen President, to allow him by means he would not have fully worked out, but possibly including some form of martial law, to remain in power. It would have been opportunism on Trump's part.

If a Biden win was prevented and Pelosi was taken out of the picture in some way, Trump's rivals for power were Pence (until 20 January only), 87 year old Grassley and Pompeo. Trump may well have felt that he could come out on top
I wouldn't disagree with any of that. When I speak of a % being 'Pro Coup' i'm really thinking more of the howling masses and snidey sideline influencers 'Trump won!' ect. People not grounded much in fact. I wouldn't suggest the right wing is any more homogenous in beliefs and motive than anyone else. I'd agree with the comparison with Germany also, plenty of them didn't fully understand the beast they were really feeding or how easily it would turn.

I doubt this was a special coup plan by Trump, more a disruption/ego thing, an attack on the election and symbolism itself. I wonder about his kids though.... There's always another Mark Thatcher.
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anarchism101
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(Original post by Napp)
Mm personally i would argue thats a slightly separate point more in the gray zone given it seems to be pretty standard for both parties in US elections to try such undemocratic tactics. Then again, the US is, at best, a limited democracy by most metrics so it shouldnt be surprising to anyone anymore :lol:
There's not been a serious attempt by either party to have presidential election results be simply thrown out in this style since 1877.
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Pythian
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This is an excellent article.

It speaks to the preponderance of brainless illiteracy on basic political definitions & subtleties that there is too-easy resort to terms like fascism and Nazism in the hopes of amplification condemnation. Calling Donald Trump a "fascist" simply dilutes away the magnitude of that idea.

Fascism is ultra-nationalist (accompanying escalations of racial antagonisms), fusing state power and religion into one, transposing industry and business into the influence of a single state system. It is aggressively mono-cultural and authoritarian in art, music and film. It propounds a conspiratorial mentality to perpetuate power; and invariably executing political opposition. Citizens who speak out are repressed, tortured and murdered.

China is a real fascist state. They are currently wiping out an ethnic minority - the Uyghurs; and easily meet the criteria above. If Trump was a fascist, there wouldn't be any ethnic minorities in America. There wouldn't be any elections or broadcasters.

I don't even think America is in any danger at all.
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Napp
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#26
(Original post by anarchism101)
There's not been a serious attempt by either party to have presidential election results be simply thrown out in this style since 1877.
No but i was more pointing to the practice of litigating results in general, which is standard practice these days. It's never been quite so brazen before but nevertheless.
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DSilva
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(Original post by Pythian)
This is an excellent article.

It speaks to the preponderance of brainless illiteracy on basic political definitions & subtleties that there is too-easy resort to terms like fascism and Nazism in the hopes of amplification condemnation. Calling Donald Trump a "fascist" simply dilutes away the magnitude of that idea.

Fascism is ultra-nationalist (accompanying escalations of racial antagonisms), fusing state power and religion into one, transposing industry and business into the influence of a single state system. It is aggressively mono-cultural and authoritarian in art, music and film. It propounds a conspiratorial mentality to perpetuate power; and invariably executing political opposition. Citizens who speak out are repressed, tortured and murdered.

China is a real fascist state. They are currently wiping out an ethnic minority - the Uyghurs; and easily meet the criteria above. If Trump was a fascist, there wouldn't be any ethnic minorities in America. There wouldn't be any elections or broadcasters.

I don't even think America is in any danger at all.
Had Trump's plan to overturn the election worked, then there wouldn't have been a fair and free election in the US again.
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Napp
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(Original post by DSilva)
Had Trump's plan to overturn the election worked, then there wouldn't have been a fair and free election in the US again.
I wasnt aware you had a crystal ball that granted you access to how counterfactuals would play out?
Either way, it seems a bit reaching to say Trump had a plan (or was overly capable of making one) given the amusing ad hoc nature of what his band of merry men got up to. Reacting being more an apt description than planning.
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DSilva
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(Original post by Napp)
I wasnt aware you had a crystal ball that granted you access to how counterfactuals would play out?
Either way, it seems a bit reaching to say Trump had a plan (or was overly capable of making one) given the amusing ad hoc nature of what his band of merry men got up to. Reacting being more an apt description than planning.
Well the plan was:

1.)pressure Secretaries of States to stop counting votes for Joe Biden
2.) file scores of frivolous law suits aimed at disqualifying votes for Joe Biden
3.) pressure states legislatures/executives to refuse to certify Joe Biden's victory
4.) pressure States to send 'alternative' slates of electors
5.) pressure Republican congressmen and senators to essentially discount millions of votes for Joe Biden
6.) encouraged and egged on a violent mob to achieve the above

Had the plan succeeded, then Trump and the Republicans would have basically discounted and disqualified tens of millions of votes for his opponent. How would that have been any different to what goes on in banana republics? Sure the method was different, but the end result would have been the same.

And let's also not forget that a huge amount of the votes that Trump and Republicans wanted to throw out were from heavily black areas.
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Fullofsurprises
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Some recent developments:

* A Three Percenter from (where else) Texas who entered the Capitol during the riot has been charged with making death threats against AOC, verbally, on social media and out loud during the riot.

* Police are still investigating the pipe bombs which they now say were made with skill and were remotely controlled.

* Some rioters had earpieces and were using a local radio net to co-ordinate.

* Analysis of social media before the event shows clearly that there was pre-meditation and a key goal was to capture leading Democrats and use them as hostages as well as murdering some.

No fascism there then. Relax everybody.
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QE2
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(Original post by Pythian)
This is an excellent article.

It speaks to the preponderance of brainless illiteracy on basic political definitions & subtleties that there is too-easy resort to terms like fascism and Nazism in the hopes of amplification condemnation. Calling Donald Trump a "fascist" simply dilutes away the magnitude of that idea.

Fascism is ultra-nationalist (accompanying escalations of racial antagonisms), fusing state power and religion into one, transposing industry and business into the influence of a single state system. It is aggressively mono-cultural and authoritarian in art, music and film. It propounds a conspiratorial mentality to perpetuate power; and invariably executing political opposition. Citizens who speak out are repressed, tortured and murdered.

China is a real fascist state. They are currently wiping out an ethnic minority - the Uyghurs; and easily meet the criteria above. If Trump was a fascist, there wouldn't be any ethnic minorities in America. There wouldn't be any elections or broadcasters.

I don't even think America is in any danger at all.
The meanings and applications of words and terms change over time and with use. It is somewhat naive to stand, waist deep in sea water, urging the tide of semantic change to turn.
It is also pointless insisting that technical and often outmoded definitions must always apply to general use.

Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
(in general use) extreme authoritarian, oppressive, or intolerant views or practices.
Fascist: An advocate or follower of the political philosophy or system of fascism.
A person who is extremely right-wing or authoritarian.
A person who is very intolerant or domineering in a particular area. - (OED)

If it's good enough for the OED, it's good enough for TSR.
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QE2
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Some recent developments:

* A Three Percenter from (where else) Texas who entered the Capitol during the riot has been charged with making death threats against AOC, verbally, on social media and out loud during the riot.

* Police are still investigating the pipe bombs which they now say were made with skill and were remotely controlled.

* Some rioters had earpieces and were using a local radio net to co-ordinate.

* Analysis of social media before the event shows clearly that there was pre-meditation and a key goal was to capture leading Democrats and use them as hostages as well as murdering some.

No fascism there then. Relax everybody.
Further evidence of Trump's planned Fascist Coup comes to light...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/u...gtype=Homepage
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by QE2)
Further evidence of Trump's planned Fascist Coup comes to light...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/u...gtype=Homepage
Yes indeed, he also had multiple discussions about imposing martial law. He stated that only his votes were legitimate and votes for Biden were illegal by definition.

The term pre-fascist is being used a lot by academics and so on, but to any realist, this was nothing but a bid for totalitarian rule. If it had succeeded, Trump would now be ruling by decree as President for Life and giant golden statues of him erected in all major cities.
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L i b
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Trump's not clever enough to be a fascist, and a rag-tag gang of misfits getting into a legislature for a few hours and causing bother does not a coup make.

I remember when it was happening, I pointed out that there had been these invasions of state legislatures in recent US history. It's a bit of a thing over there and - while it wouldn't happen in Britain - it's not really an attack on the state any more than any other riot or disorder.
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Napp
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#35
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#35
(Original post by QE2)
Further evidence of Trump's planned Fascist Coup comes to light...
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/22/u...gtype=Homepage
I really wish you would stop misusing these words. All it does is degrade actual instances of them occurring. Especially your misuse of the term fascist here.. unless you're merely using it as a slur, there being nothing to show that Trump (whilst a corrupt, egotistic tin pot wannabe dictator) is anything remotely like a fascist.
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QE2
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(Original post by Napp)
I really wish you would stop misusing these words. All it does is degrade actual instances of them occurring. Especially your misuse of the term fascist here.. unless you're merely using it as a slur, there being nothing to show that Trump (whilst a corrupt, egotistic tin pot wannabe dictator) is anything remotely like a fascist.
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
(in general use) extreme authoritarian, oppressive, or intolerant views or practices.
Fascist: An advocate or follower of the political philosophy or system of fascism.
A person who is extremely right-wing or authoritarian.
A person who is very intolerant or domineering in a particular area. - (OED)

If it's good enough for the OED, it's good enough for TSR.
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Napp
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(Original post by QE2)
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
(in general use) extreme authoritarian, oppressive, or intolerant views or practices.
Fascist: An advocate or follower of the political philosophy or system of fascism.
A person who is extremely right-wing or authoritarian.
A person who is very intolerant or domineering in a particular area. - (OED)

If it's good enough for the OED, it's good enough for TSR.
The OED does not consider Trump a fascist, nor does any serious political scientist consider his views equatable to Hitler or Mussolini, unlike you apparently. Nor, for that matter, do many consider trumps ramblings to be an ideology, fascist or otherwise either.

The fact you are apparently unaware of what actual fascism is so as to use the term so slatternly is, however, interesting. Not least because it seems to rather vindicate those on the rights view that certain leftists consider anything to the right of Blair to be "fascists" and merely using the word as a rather odd way to try and insult someone.
By all means insult Trump and call out his abominable behaviour but dont call cheapen what a fascist is, and those who have actually suffered under it, simply because you take umbrage with the human orange.
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Fullofsurprises
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(Original post by Napp)
cheapen what a fascist is, and those who have actually suffered under it, simply because you take umbrage with the human orange.
He aligned with fascists. He has repeatedly called the Far Right "people who like me", he says things like "we love you" in their direction. He said "they are all good people" right after they committed murders during the BLM organised violence of the counter-reaction. He commanded them to attack the Capitol "be strong, do what is needed" and then said he loved them. He has announced that the QAnon lunacy is full of good people who love him.

Votes for Biden, were, according to Trump, "illegal". Only votes for Trump were legal.

This isn't exactly the same as Hitlerism, but it's fascistic to support fascists and urge them to attack the prime institution of one's democracy.

As for his tendency to ramble and be incoherent, folks probably don't realise that a number of leading historical fascists like Mussolini for example often made long illogical rambling speeches.

He hasn't issued black uniforms, but really, all I can see so far is that he's a fascist who hasn't yet made it to totalitarian rule, but came close and certainly wanted it.
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QE2
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(Original post by Napp)
The OED does not consider Trump a fascist, nor does any serious political scientist consider his views equatable to Hitler or Mussolini,
That's quite the straw man, even for you!

The fact you are apparently unaware of what actual fascism is so as to use the term so slatternly is, however, interesting. Not least because it seems to rather vindicate those on the rights view that certain leftists consider anything to the right of Blair to be "fascists" and merely using the word as a rather odd way to try and insult someone.

By all means insult Trump and call out his abominable behaviour but dont call cheapen what a fascist is, and those who have actually suffered under it, simply because you take umbrage with the human orange.
You seem to have entirely missed the point.
The actions and aims of Trump and his supporters fits the definitions of "fascist" and "fascism" in the OED, in which case it seems somewhat strange to make such a big fuss about its use in that context.

BTW, rather odd use of "slatternly" there. Or were you trying to be ironic?
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Pythian
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(Original post by DSilva)
Had Trump's plan to overturn the election worked, then there wouldn't have been a fair and free election in the US again.
The US has an Enlightenment-inspired constitution with various organs of state abiding by the separation of powers doctrine. The executive, legislative and judicial branches of government are kept in totally separate and distinct corners to prevent any abuse of power. Consequently, the President (executive) never sits in Congress (legislature), and whilst the President can appoint his own cabinet posts, the Senate must ratify them. The courts are entirely separate again. The President nominates a judge and Congress confirms a justice to the US Supreme Court. This prevents the courts becoming independently too powerful. But, the Supreme Court is a check against executive power that is ultra vires. For example, famously, during the Korean War in the 1950s, President Truman nationalised steel mills during the steel strike. The Supreme Court ruled that the executive order was illegal because it exceeded the powers granted to the presidency under the Constitution. The Supreme Court rejected Trump's lawsuit to overturn election results. America has a complete and strict separation of powers which is much stricter than England's separation of powers. This is a v. old political doctrine going back to John Locke, Montesqieu, Thomas Paine, James Harrington etc... and their philosophical writings hugely shaped the framers of the United States Constitution.

The broader structure and strength of the US Constitution is an ability to resist and neutralise abuses of power. The very fact that proceedings are underway to impeach him next week goes directly against the thrust of your charges. There is simply no comparison with Hitler and fascism.
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