The EU is being outrageously pathetic

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TCA2b
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Starship Trooper)
The UK should seek to undermine the EU and put it out if it's misery before they destroy us.

We need to leave NATO and work with Russia (who are traditional allies) as well as Poland and Hungary. Merkel Is gone and Macron could lose to Le Pen and Salvini is favourite in Italy- both natural allies of Brexit Britain
Agreed. I hope the French do the right thing and we see the last of Macron's presidency. He is little more than a puppet created by Hollande.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by Napp)
First, cool username.
Second, what ginormous crackpipe have you been sucking on to think this comment makes any sense?
We have been 'allies' with Russia twice and that was out of necessity and little else. For the rest of modern history Russia has been, if not an enemy, but a grave rival. Equally, if you think the Poles will be working with Russia well, lol.
As for undermining our closest allies and trading partners, very droll.
We were allies with Russia against Napolean too. Regardless our history is a lot closer with them than Germany. Also we were fighting against communism.

Poles don't like Russians true but they're not fans of Germans either and with the way things are going I think Poland will become more pro russian esp if the EU asserts more pressure on them.

As for closest allies , heh not after brexit no matter what Boris says. The Eurocrats hate our guts
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by Napp)
Indulge us as to how this is true?
Please tell me how it isn't, at least any more than any other country Inc the US/ UK?
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Napp
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
We were allies with Russia against Napolean too. Regardless our history is a lot closer with them than Germany. Also we were fighting against communism.

Poles don't like Russians true but they're not fans of Germans either and with the way things are going I think Poland will become more pro russian esp if the EU asserts more pressure on them.

As for closest allies , heh not after brexit no matter what Boris says. The Eurocrats hate our guts
That is one exception to centuries of hatred, conflict, suspicion and outright war.. Be it Crimea, the great game, most of the 20th century and most of this century too for that matter. Equally, in what way is our history with Russia 'closer' than with Germany? We are close to the germanic peoples both ethnically/culturally/geographically, have a german royal family and bar the 2 world wars have broadly got along with Germany (including against napolean).
Yes we were fighting against communism... Russian communism...

Doubtful. They might not like being dictated to by Brussells but they would take that over Moscow any day of the week. Centuries of ethnic conflict dont tend to suddenly wash away because someone orders you to respect your judiciary.

Again, doubt it. It is much more like they simply don't really care about a small island off the coast throwing a tantrum. There being a rather large difference between indifference bordering on distaste and "hate".
(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Please tell me how it isn't, at least any more than any other country Inc the US/ UK?
This is your claim, the onus is on you to prove it..
That being said, it is a matter of fact that the Russian economy is distressingly dependent on China, the far east is populated (and growing) by a huge number of chinese. Most of Russia's key industries are whole/part owned by China.
Of course that is ignoring the fact America has pushed Russia far closer into China's tentacles since '14.
Most of all though, you simply have to read the comments in the Russian media, from the government and from the military - they are deeply worried about their dependence on China and their strategic vulnerability both economically, militarily and territorially. None of this is particularly debatable given it comes from the horses mouth, so to speak.
As to compared to Britain or America, debatable either way but thats not really the point. The point is Russia is highly dependent on its large southern neighbour and they are perfectly aware of this.
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Quady
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#25
(Original post by DiddyDec)
Publicly traded companies are still private intuitions rather than public bodies.
Right.

So Government doesn't regulate Astra's activities.
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by Napp)
That is one exception to centuries of hatred, conflict, suspicion and outright war.. Be it Crimea, the great game, most of the 20th century and most of this century too for that matter. Equally, in what way is our history with Russia 'closer' than with Germany? We are close to the germanic peoples both ethnically/culturally/geographically, have a german royal family and bar the 2 world wars have broadly got along with Germany (including against napolean).
Yes we were fighting against communism... Russian communism...

Doubtful. They might not like being dictated to by Brussells but they would take that over Moscow any day of the week. Centuries of ethnic conflict dont tend to suddenly wash away because someone orders you to respect your judiciary.

Again, doubt it. It is much more like they simply don't really care about a small island off the coast throwing a tantrum. There being a rather large difference between indifference bordering on distaste and "hate".

This is your claim, the onus is on you to prove it..
That being said, it is a matter of fact that the Russian economy is distressingly dependent on China, the far east is populated (and growing) by a huge number of chinese. Most of Russia's key industries are whole/part owned by China.
Of course that is ignoring the fact America has pushed Russia far closer into China's tentacles since '14.
Most of all though, you simply have to read the comments in the Russian media, from the government and from the military - they are deeply worried about their dependence on China and their strategic vulnerability both economically, militarily and territorially. None of this is particularly debatable given it comes from the horses mouth, so to speak.
As to compared to Britain or America, debatable either way but thats not really the point. The point is Russia is highly dependent on its large southern neighbour and they are perfectly aware of this.
The UK being very good at real politik have been allies and enemies with most of Europe. Pivoting to support the EU and Eurosceptic EU states is the obvious next step.
Your avatar is right: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE


The onus is on you to prove the positive.
As for China and Russia they are rivals and Russia is insecure about China having overtaken them. However unlike in the west Russia is far more friendly and aligned with Chinese values and as they say 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. None if what you say to me determines whether a country is independent- being able to choose it's rulers, having its own laws and foreign policy and not being militarily occupied as well as having legitimacy over its citizens.


By your standards what country is independent?*

*I accept that no country is completely independent (now) due to the global market and international law ,(to some degree)
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SHallowvale
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Starship Trooper)
The UK should seek to undermine the EU and put it out if it's misery before they destroy us.

We need to leave NATO and work with Russia (who are traditional allies) as well as Poland and Hungary.
Why?
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Napp
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#28
(Original post by Starship Trooper)
The UK being very good at real politik have been allies and enemies with most of Europe. Pivoting to support the EU and Eurosceptic EU states is the obvious next step.
Your avatar is right: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE
To the first bit, what is your point?
To the second, in what way is "pivoting to support euroskeptic eu states" an obious next step and an example of realpolitik?
Er you do know what satire is right?

The onus is on you to prove the positive.
As for China and Russia they are rivals and Russia is insecure about China having overtaken them. However unlike in the west Russia is far more friendly and aligned with Chinese values and as they say 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. None if what you say to me determines whether a country is independent- being able to choose it's rulers, having its own laws and foreign policy and not being militarily occupied as well as having legitimacy over its citizens.
Not really, do you not know how debating works? You make a point, you prove it. It is not up to anyone else to do that for you. Either way, the list of reasons as to why you're wrong has already been given to you.
Say that to a Russian, see what the response is :lol: Russia has it's own distinct set of values and follows no one elses, be they Chinese or liberal european ones. This is a rather elementary fact when it comes to analysing Russia. As to the rather synical quote there, not especially. The Kremlin is, indeed, adept at seizing any opportunity that presents itself but only in so much as it benefits them. They do not simply latch on to anyone because they have a disagreement with their 'enemy' (China hardly being an enemy, as opposed to a competitor)

As to the last bit, what exactly has that to do with anything? We are not talking about countries being invaded and occupied as opposed to the freedom of strategic manouvre. One that Russia has seen significantly degraded in the face of Beijings economic rise and military modernisation. They havent dumped brigades armed with Iskander missiles in their eastern district because theyre safe in the knowledge China is not a threat to them.

By your standards what country is independent?*


*I accept that no country is completely independent (now) due to the global market and international law ,(to some degree)
I'm not overly certain why you have changed the meaning of independent to such a literal one? That being more than somewhat facetious as by that logic every country is 'independent' of China.

The fact of the matter is, apropos Russia, is that whilst they have the attributes you listed that does not make them any more independent of China than anyone else. To be independent is not limited to the 20th century literal interpretation, especially not when it comes to geopolitics. Russia might well be free to make its own laws and wage war on whomever it likes but in this context, 'dependence' simply means to what degree their relationship dictates their freedom of action. The fact that a substantial proportion of Russia's economic needs are met by China obviously curtails that.
You are more than welcome, infact encouraged, to read the works of Lo, Trenin, Blanc, Galeotti et al. to disabuse you of the idea that Russia is the exception to the rule that states are not free to do as they please simply because they dont have an army sitting in their capitol.
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Starship Trooper
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#29
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#29
(Original post by Napp)
To the first bit, what is your point?
To the second, in what way is "pivoting to support euroskeptic eu states" an obious next step and an example of realpolitik?
Er you do know what satire is right?


Not really, do you not know how debating works? You make a point, you prove it. It is not up to anyone else to do that for you. Either way, the list of reasons as to why you're wrong has already been given to you.
Say that to a Russian, see what the response is :lol: Russia has it's own distinct set of values and follows no one elses, be they Chinese or liberal european ones. This is a rather elementary fact when it comes to analysing Russia. As to the rather synical quote there, not especially. The Kremlin is, indeed, adept at seizing any opportunity that presents itself but only in so much as it benefits them. They do not simply latch on to anyone because they have a disagreement with their 'enemy' (China hardly being an enemy, as opposed to a competitor)

As to the last bit, what exactly has that to do with anything? We are not talking about countries being invaded and occupied as opposed to the freedom of strategic manouvre. One that Russia has seen significantly degraded in the face of Beijings economic rise and military modernisation. They havent dumped brigades armed with Iskander missiles in their eastern district because theyre safe in the knowledge China is not a threat to them.


I'm not overly certain why you have changed the meaning of independent to such a literal one? That being more than somewhat facetious as by that logic every country is 'independent' of China.

The fact of the matter is, apropos Russia, is that whilst they have the attributes you listed that does not make them any more independent of China than anyone else. To be independent is not limited to the 20th century literal interpretation, especially not when it comes to geopolitics. Russia might well be free to make its own laws and wage war on whomever it likes but in this context, 'dependence' simply means to what degree their relationship dictates their freedom of action. The fact that a substantial proportion of Russia's economic needs are met by China obviously curtails that.
You are more than welcome, infact encouraged, to read the works of Lo, Trenin, Blanc, Galeotti et al. to disabuse you of the idea that Russia is the exception to the rule that states are not free to do as they please simply because they dont have an army sitting in their capitol.
Napp

My point is you were talking about our history as if we've always had some special relationship with Europe when in fact we've spent most of our history playing them against each other and as such my proposal is not the abberation you are claiming it to be. Yes FM is satire but on the above point that's simply factual (obv the foreign office actually did become captured by pro eu sorts)

The EU esp if it get an army would be the regional hedgemon that could in theory pose a mortal threat to the UKs national interest- which as a realist/ neorealist, I do not think we will abide particularly as I suspect the UK will continue to drift rightwards politically. The EU (if it doesn't collapse) is also becoming more extreme - I can well envision it banning populist parties like AFD and Sweden Democrats to "protect democracy" there are already groups calling for such parties to be called terrorists and if being Eurosceptic is terrorism the UK is Afghanistan and will further resentments.


Ok independent (as far as one can be ) ... I think you're being a tad pedantic here. Is your argument that because it would damage itself if it decided to say nuke china it's not really independent, thats not how it works.
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Napp
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(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Napp

My point is you were talking about our history as if we've always had some special relationship with Europe when in fact we've spent most of our history playing them against each other and as such my proposal is not the abberation you are claiming it to be. Yes FM is satire but on the above point that's simply factual (obv the foreign office actually did become captured by pro eu sorts)
I did not say we have always had a special relationship with Europe?
What is this 'fm'? To a point but that is still a gross oversimplification of grand strategy. We have never simply 'played them off against each other' for the hell of it.
"Captured"? Oh dont be so conspiratorial minded.
The EU esp if it get an army would be the regional hedgemon that could in theory pose a mortal threat to the UKs national interest- which as a realist/ neorealist, I do not think we will abide particularly as I suspect the UK will continue to drift rightwards politically. The EU (if it doesn't collapse) is also becoming more extreme - I can well envision it banning populist parties like AFD and Sweden Democrats to "protect democracy" there are already groups calling for such parties to be called terrorists and if being Eurosceptic is terrorism the UK is Afghanistan and will further resentments.
It's not like the UK could do anything about it, nor would it have much of a right to complain given europhobes wanted that.. Britain is a third rate power (America being first, RU/CH being in the second order).
I rather doubt it and no one has called them terrorists.. (possibly an odd far left activist but thats not exactly worth referencing).
I dont take the Afghan reference? Or are you saying Britain should make it a policy to make Europe an enemy? A truly bizarre thing if ever there was one.
Ok independent (as far as one can be ) ... I think you're being a tad pedantic here. Is your argument that because it would damage itself if it decided to say nuke china it's not really independent, thats not how it works.
Not especially, merely saying that its incorrect to say that the country is completely free to do whatever it wants.
No, my argument is that your claim that Russia is completely independent of China is wrong. Russia is economically rather beholden to China and theyre not in the business of cutting off their noses to spite their faces, especially when it is the west that pushed Russia into Chinas embrace. No country is completely independent of another, least of all the country with the worlds largest gdp//ppp. On top of that, they are more than aware that China now calls the shots to a larger degree in the near abroad than they do. They can no longer treat the CIS states in CA as mere provinces. As you noted, the Russians are realists, in line with that theyre aware of their limitations. Then again, theyd sooner be friendly with China than America given the perception that America has it out for Moscow (not an unreasonable position to take)
I'm not entirely sure what you're on about with nukes sorry?
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DiddyDec
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#31
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For those of you that care a heavily redacted version of the vaccine contract has been released.
https://twitter.com/antoguerrera/sta...12371140886530
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Other_Owl
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Covid is at its end game now. Whats going to happen after this? We can't constantly celebrate or constantly have a jab at the EU over this. We have to move on.
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Quady
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Other_Owl)
Covid is at its end game now. Whats going to happen after this? We can't constantly celebrate or constantly have a jab at the EU over this. We have to move on.
Is it...?

Why are we being advised not to book summer holidays then?
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uberteknik
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#34
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In a new move, the EU has invoked article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol to prevent export to NI of vaccines produced in the EU - including both A-Z and Pfizer-BioNTech.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55864442

This in effect is a dangerous precedent towards introducing a hard border - during Brexit negotiations, this was exactly the thing the EU insisted is a red-line that must never be allowed.

NI First Minister, Arlene Foster, has described the move as "an incredible act of hostility" by the EU with no prior warning. "By triggering Article 16 in this manner, the European Union has once again shown it is prepared to use Northern Ireland when it suits their interests but in the most despicable manner - over the provision of a vaccine which is designed to save lives," she said.

EU now getting desperate and seems like they want to have their cake and now eat - when it suits.

True colours shining through now. I guess the gloves will be coming off soon.
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DiddyDec
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#35
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(Original post by uberteknik)
In a new move, the EU has invoked article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol to prevent export to NI of vaccines produced in the EU - including both A-Z and Pfizer-BioNTech.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55864442

This in effect is a dangerous precedent towards introducing a hard border - during Brexit negotiations, this was exactly the thing the EU insisted is a red-line that must never be allowed.

NI First Minister, Arlene Foster, has described the move as "an incredible act of hostility" by the EU with no prior warning. "By triggering Article 16 in this manner, the European Union has once again shown it is prepared to use Northern Ireland when it suits their interests but in the most despicable manner - over the provision of a vaccine which is designed to save lives," she said.

EU now getting desperate and seems like they want to have their cake and now eat - when it suits.

True colours shining through now. I guess the gloves will be coming off soon.
I never thought it would be the EU to endanger the GFA and unite remainers with brexiteers. They have really misjudged this move.
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Quady
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(Original post by uberteknik)
during Brexit negotiations, this was exactly the thing the EU insisted is a red-line that must never be allowed.
Was it?

Wasn't even mentioned in the EU's negotiating mandate was it?

If it were never to be allowed the UK could have just demanded anything.
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Quady
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
They have really misjudged this move.
Have they?

Who is going to be sad with them? The Irish?

Even they would quite like some more vaccine.
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DiddyDec
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(Original post by Quady)
Have they?

Who is going to be sad with them? The Irish?

Even they would quite like some more vaccine.
The EU Commission has now withdrawn Article 16, clearly a massive **** up.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1355278632487415808
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Quady
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(Original post by DiddyDec)
The EU Commission has now withdrawn Article 16, clearly a massive **** up.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1355278632487415808
OK....?
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Starship Trooper
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(Original post by Napp)
I did not say we have always had a special relationship with Europe?
I inferred from your original post that our relationship with Europe Has been far rosier than with Russia. I disagree.

What is this 'fm'?
Typo, I meant YM as in Yes Minister. apolologies
We have never simply 'played them off against each other' for the hell of it.
I never said they did, they had good reason too.
"Captured"? Oh dont be so conspiratorial minded.
I'm not alleging a conspiracy, the foreign policy shifted to a more pro eu body.
It's not like the UK could do anything about it, nor would it have much of a right to complain given europhobes wanted that.. Britain is a third rate power (America being first, RU/CH being in the second order).
Britain is the underdog and as per dictates of realism should work with others to form a balance of power against the much stronger threat of the EU which is not yet powerful enough to be the undisputed ruler of the region in the way that America or China is in theirs.
I rather doubt it and no one has called them terrorists.. (possibly an odd far left activist but thats not exactly worth referencing).
How about the head of German Intelligence?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...r-surveillance
I dont take the Afghan reference? Or are you saying Britain should make it a policy to make Europe an enemy? A truly bizarre thing if ever there was one.
I believe the EU is now a rival to the UK and has incentives to damage us to deter others. Had they been dealing with brexit from a position of strength they would not have been so nice with us.
Not especially, merely saying that its incorrect to say that the country is completely free to do whatever it wants.
No, my argument is that your claim that Russia is completely independent of China is wrong. Russia is economically rather beholden to China and theyre not in the business of cutting off their noses to spite their faces, especially when it is the west that pushed Russia into Chinas embrace. No country is completely independent of another, least of all the country with the worlds largest gdp//ppp. On top of that, they are more than aware that China now calls the shots to a larger degree in the near abroad than they do. They can no longer treat the CIS states in CA as mere provinces. As you noted, the Russians are realists, in line with that theyre aware of their limitations. Then again, theyd sooner be friendly with China than America given the perception that America has it out for Moscow (not an unreasonable position to take)
Fine , I agree to an extent.
I'm not entirely sure what you're on about with nukes sorry?
The point I was making was that just because Russia wouldn't want to do something doesn't negate the fact that it could in theory do so. Also States can act irrationally too.
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