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chloenicole.g
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I know that this is based in the UK, but there are American members, and I really like to argue. Could I have anybody argue with me over the fact that Trump was a better president than Biden will ever be?
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Stumpy1001
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(Original post by chloenicole.g)
I know that this is based in the UK, but there are American members, and I really like to argue. Could I have anybody argue with me over the fact that Trump was a better president than Biden will ever be?
Can’t argue with you because it’s a fact .

I thought Biden believe in democracy , yet in his first two week in office he has signed more executive orders than trump,Obama and bush combined within the same time frame. And yet his party has holds a majority in Congress . So why isn’t he taking his motions to floor and letting them be debated as per the American democratic system.
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Keir Starmer
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(Original post by Stumpy1001)
Can’t argue with you because it’s a fact .

I thought Biden believe in democracy , yet in his first two week in office he has signed more executive orders than trump,Obama and bush combined within the same time frame. And yet his party has holds a majority in Congress . So why isn’t he taking his motions to floor and letting them be debated as per the American democratic system.
The fact that Biden has signed executive order does not make him an 'undemocratic President'. He is entitled to sign them. I think there is a misunderstanding about what an executive order really is.
An executive order IS NOT a law; it's an order by the POTUS that directs federal govt employees to take certain actions. There is also a limit on this power because if the Supreme Court thinks an executive order is unconstitutional then it can be overturned.

Laws are made within the legislature, which in this case is Congress, made up of the House of Representative and the Senate.

Biden signing executive orders is no less democratic than Congress making laws. He, like all members of Congress has a democratic mandate.
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chloenicole.g
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(Original post by Stumpy1001)
Can’t argue with you because it’s a fact .

I thought Biden believe in democracy , yet in his first two week in office he has signed more executive orders than trump,Obama and bush combined within the same time frame. And yet his party has holds a majority in Congress . So why isn’t he taking his motions to floor and letting them be debated as per the American democratic system.
I was half expecting you to try and argue with me, but nothing makes me happier than to see someone say exactly what I'm thinking. Yet, Biden is acting like and being treated like our king and as if our country's government is a monarchy. I would like to believe that something good is going to come out of this, alas, seeing everything going on, it's hard to have courage. Let's start by talking about guns?
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chloenicole.g
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(Original post by Keir Starmer)
The fact that Biden has signed executive order does not make him an 'undemocratic President'. He is entitled to sign them. I think there is a misunderstanding about what an executive order really is.
An executive order IS NOT a law; it's an order by the POTUS that directs federal govt employees to take certain actions. There is also a limit on this power because if the Supreme Court thinks an executive order is unconstitutional then it can be overturned.

Laws are made within the legislature, which in this case is Congress, made up of the House of Representative and the Senate.

Biden signing executive orders is no less democratic than Congress making laws. He, like all members of Congress has a democratic mandate.
At least we agree that an executive order is not a law. This can settle our argument about masks, seeing as it's not a law to wear them, only an oder. Therefore, we cannot legally be ticketed or arrested for breaking something that's not a law.
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Keir Starmer
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(Original post by chloenicole.g)
I know that this is based in the UK, but there are American members, and I really like to argue. Could I have anybody argue with me over the fact that Trump was a better president than Biden will ever be?
It's hard to say really. I guess you can't really compare Biden's first few week with Trump's 4 years in office. It's possible that the Biden administration could seriously mess up on some stuff, most likely foreign policy in the Middle East or with China.

However, I think Biden's messaging on the COVID crisis has been much better than Trump's and the greater support for families struggling due to the economic fallout from the pandemic is also an improvement on the last administration.
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Keir Starmer
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(Original post by chloenicole.g)
At least we agree that an executive order is not a law. This can settle our argument about masks, seeing as it's not a law to wear them, only an oder. Therefore, we cannot legally be ticketed or arrested for breaking something that's not a law.
The executive order was not a nationwide mask mandate. It was an order to federal employees to wear masks in federal buildings.
The President can't really order a nationwide mask mandate, it's a matter for the states which is why Ron DeSantis in Florida has not told people to wear masks whilst Andrew Cuomo in New York has required people to wear masks.
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chloenicole.g
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(Original post by Keir Starmer)
It's hard to say really. I guess you can't really compare Biden's first few week with Trump's 4 years in office. It's possible that the Biden administration could seriously mess up on some stuff, most likely foreign policy in the Middle East or with China.

However, I think Biden's messaging on the COVID crisis has been much better than Trump's and the greater support for families struggling due to the economic fallout from the pandemic is also an improvement on the last administration.
COVID is what you make it, and if you're scared, wear a mask, but don't force anybody else to against our will. Furthermore, masks don't work either way. As far as the economic fallout, if Biden wants to give out money, its simply telling people that they don't have to work for what they get. Then, you have the lazy ass drug addict getting money for free without working.
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chloenicole.g
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(Original post by Keir Starmer)
The executive order was not a nationwide mask mandate. It was an order to federal employees to wear masks in federal buildings.
The President can't really order a nationwide mask mandate, it's a matter for the states which is why Ron DeSantis in Florida has not told people to wear masks whilst Andrew Cuomo in New York has required people to wear masks.
Either way, we can't be forced to whether we work in a federal building or not, seeing as they cannot take away our freedom to do what we want.
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Stumpy1001
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(Original post by Keir Starmer)
The fact that Biden has signed executive order does not make him an 'undemocratic President'. He is entitled to sign them. I think there is a misunderstanding about what an executive order really is.
An executive order IS NOT a law; it's an order by the POTUS that directs federal govt employees to take certain actions. There is also a limit on this power because if the Supreme Court thinks an executive order is unconstitutional then it can be overturned.

Laws are made within the legislature, which in this case is Congress, made up of the House of Representative and the Senate.

Biden signing executive orders is no less democratic than Congress making laws. He, like all members of Congress has a democratic mandate.
I guarantee if this was trump , people would be screaming bloody murder.
I mean look at the executive order that mandates schools must allow people whom identify as women ( those not born genetically female ) They must be allowed to compete in girls sports activities or lose federal funding . That’s has effectively killed competitive female sports.
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Stumpy1001
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(Original post by chloenicole.g)
Either way, we can't be forced to whether we work in a federal building or not, seeing as they cannot take away our freedom to do what we want.
Have to wear them Inside federal buildings year there a picture going round of Biden and his family not one of em Is wearing a mask . Biden can’t even follow his own initiatives
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chloenicole.g
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(Original post by Stumpy1001)
I guarantee if this was trump , people would be screaming bloody murder.
I mean look at the executive order that mandates schools must allow people whom identify as women ( those not born genetically female ) They must be allowed to compete in girls sports activities or lose federal funding . That’s has effectively killed competitive female sports.
I firmly believe there are only two genders, and men are made for women, and vice versa. But yes, you are right- people tip-toeing around others' feelings ruins our sports in high school.
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Stumpy1001
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(Original post by Masked Marauder)
I am not sure why you feel this way? Could you please elaborate further? I was, and am, of the opinion that Trumps presidency was a visceral hornets nest for the USA and the entire world, there was so much theatre and it became impossible to keep track of it all, I apologise for being ignorant as I have not actively tracked the news over the years but I sense that Trump pushed all the wrong buttons, or rather, he hammered them down till they were stuck and the alarm bells kept ringing.

With all the disasters and the shocking ending to his term, why and what makes you say that? Please elaborate I am not seeking to antagonise your view but rather trying to gauge why people would believe this after seeing trumps presidency unfold.
What about the first step act ?


That’s a bill to reduce inmate populations which has overwhelmingly helped people of colour. Funny how no one mentions it .
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chloenicole.g
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(Original post by Masked Marauder)
I am not sure why you feel this way? Could you please elaborate further? I was, and am, of the opinion that Trumps presidency was a visceral hornets nest for the USA and the entire world, there was so much theatre and it became impossible to keep track of it all, I apologise for being knowingly ignorant as I have not actively sought the news over the years but I sense that Trump pushed all the wrong buttons, or rather, he hammered them down till they were stuck and the alarm bells kept ringing.

With all the disasters and the shocking ending to his term, why and what makes you say that? Please elaborate I am not seeking to antagonise your view but rather trying to gauge why people would believe this after seeing trumps presidency unfold.
First of all, thank you for not jumping to conclusions and asking for an elaboration. I believe this because he didn't parade around other people's feelings, rather, he spoke his mind and had logical reason for doing things to affect our country positively instead of just signing pieces of paper his cabinet members put in front of him. He considered how every little thing would affect the US and did nothin with haste, rather with dignity and being sure that his decisions were correct, though they may hurt others' feelings.
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Stumpy1001
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(Original post by chloenicole.g)
First of all, thank you for not jumping to conclusions and asking for an elaboration. I believe this because he didn't parade around other people's feelings, rather, he spoke his mind and had logical reason for doing things to affect our country positively instead of just signing pieces of paper his cabinet members put in front of him. He considered how every little thing would affect the US and did nothin with haste, rather with dignity and being sure that his decisions were correct, though they may hurt others' feelings.
ala first step act

America energy independent for the first time under Trump.
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Keir Starmer
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(Original post by chloenicole.g)
COVID is what you make it, and if you're scared, wear a mask, but don't force anybody else to against our will. Furthermore, masks don't work either way. As far as the economic fallout, if Biden wants to give out money, its simply telling people that they don't have to work for what they get. Then, you have the lazy ass drug addict getting money for free without working.
(Original post by chloenicole.g)
Either way, we can't be forced to whether we work in a federal building or not, seeing as they cannot take away our freedom to do what we want.
You've made a couple of points here, let me try and address them in full. I'm happy to keep this discussion going cause it seems we're both interested in politics and have opposing views which is always good when having a debate.

When you say 'COVID is what you make it' I think you're being a little bit too casual about the whole thing. In America alone over 450K+ people have died. I don't for one second accept that was every inevitable. It was due to a failure of clarity and leadership from the top (President Trump). Stronger public messaging on the seriousness of the situation, I believe would have saved thousands of lives.

On the issue of liberty, I accept that people need to have certain rights and freedoms. However, there does need to be a limit. I don't know if you're familiar with the idea of 'negative liberty'. It's the idea that the government should have minimal interference in peoples lives up to the point where you start harming others, at that point there needs to be intervention.
It's is scientifically proven that when the population as a whole start wearing masks where people are gathered it reduces the transmission of COVID, along with social distancing it is quite effective. Therefore, I'd argue that by not wearing a mask and following other guidance such as social distancing you are potentially infringing on somebody else's' right to life as COVID is a deadly disease. As you are going against their basic rights, I believe the govt should intervene, whether that be the state/federal govt.

When you talked about the support for unemployed people, I strongly reject your characterisation of the people who claim financial support from the government. When you look at the sectors that have been hit hardest, they include the hospitality sector, in which plenty of hardworking yet but not very well off people have been laid off. When those people pay their taxes to the state and federal govt I don't think it's unreasonable for the state and federal govt to help them when they're struggling.
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Keir Starmer
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(Original post by Stumpy1001)
I guarantee if this was trump , people would be screaming bloody murder.
I mean look at the executive order that mandates schools must allow people whom identify as women ( those not born genetically female ) They must be allowed to compete in girls sports activities or lose federal funding . That’s has effectively killed competitive female sports.
I agree with you when you say there would be a great outcry if Trump signed this many executive orders.

Although, I think you're focusing on the wrong issue, even if what you have said is true about Trump, it doesn't mean that executive orders are any less democratically legitimate which was your original point in the previous point.
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chloenicole.g
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(Original post by Keir Starmer)
You've made a couple of points here, let me try and address them in full. I'm happy to keep this discussion going cause it seems we're both interested in politics and have opposing views which is always good when having a debate.

When you say 'COVID is what you make it' I think you're being a little bit too casual about the whole thing. In America alone over 450K+ people have died. I don't for one second accept that was every inevitable. It was due to a failure of clarity and leadership from the top (President Trump). Stronger public messaging on the seriousness of the situation, I believe would have saved thousands of lives.

On the issue of liberty, I accept that people need to have certain rights and freedoms. However, there does need to be a limit. I don't know if you're familiar with the idea of 'negative liberty'. It's the idea that the government should have minimal interference in peoples lives up to the point where you start harming others, at that point there needs to be intervention.
It's is scientifically proven that when the population as a whole start wearing masks where people are gathered it reduces the transmission of COVID, along with social distancing it is quite effective. Therefore, I'd argue that by not wearing a mask and following other guidance such as social distancing you are potentially infringing on somebody else's' right to life as COVID is a deadly disease. As you are going against their basic rights, I believe the govt should intervene, whether that be the state/federal govt.

When you talked about the support for unemployed people, I strongly reject your characterisation of the people who claim financial support from the government. When you look at the sectors that have been hit hardest, they include the hospitality sector, in which plenty of hardworking yet but not very well off people have been laid off. When those people pay their taxes to the state and federal govt I don't think it's unreasonable for the state and federal govt to help them when they're struggling.
I believe that, though government should recommend us to wear masks, they should not force us to against our will; if I don't want to wear a mask, I'm not going to. As far as social distancing goes, being close to people even when there isn't a pandemic is still disrespectful.

Financial support is understandable, as long as you have a very logical reason and you're not going to spend the money on drugs or alcohol; I believe you shouldn't use someone else's money to pay for your own addiction.
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Stumpy1001
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(Original post by Keir Starmer)
I agree with you when you say there would be a great outcry if Trump signed this many executive orders.

Although, I think you're focusing on the wrong issue, even if what you have said is true about Trump, it doesn't mean that executive orders are any less democratically legitimate which was your original point in the previous point.
occasional use is legitimate, ham fisting loads of executive orders especially on issues that are polarizing is undemocratic , which consequently is something Biden himself alluded to before winning the election (i will see if i can find the video). Also when you consider this election was a lot closer than the media would lead you to believe and that's before we even mention potential voter fraud it just seems a bit backroomish.
you are right that technically they are not laws , and can be repealed by the supreme court. But can you trust the judicial system in america right now?
they are wasting how much tax payer money impeaching a president that's no longer in office?
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Keir Starmer
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(Original post by chloenicole.g)
I believe that, though government should recommend us to wear masks, they should not force us to against our will; if I don't want to wear a mask, I'm not going to. As far as social distancing goes, being close to people even when there isn't a pandemic is still disrespectful.

Financial support is understandable, as long as you have a very logical reason and you're not going to spend the money on drugs or alcohol; I believe you shouldn't use someone else's money to pay for your own addiction.
The government want to reduce deaths and prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed. It is perfectly understandable for them to make masks and social distancing a rule for everyone to follow.

Financial support in this time is not just understandable, its necessary. The money simply isn't going to hard working people who want to be in work but have been laid off.
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