Should Johnson & Hancock face criminal charges for mishandling the pandemic?

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MatureStudent37
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(Original post by Napp)
Mildly racist.. and specious for that matter. A Thai is not the same as a Malay, just as a Malay is not the same as a Japanese. The general assumption that all Asians are not but meak little followers of authority is little more than a crass generalisation that rapidly falls apart when ever anyone actually goes to an Asian country. Not least because many Asians merely do as theyre told because the governments are quite fond on jailing/shooting them otherwise. Merely look at anywhere from India to Thailand to Burma and beyond.

Nope, different continents which include different areas of the pacific.

To a point but what does that have to do with it? Especially given the major population centres are where most people live? nearly 25% of NZL's population live in one city for example. Same goes for Australia with most people living in tightly packed conurbations.
Not at all racist. If I were to only that Asians were less capable than white people. That would be racist. Highlighting cultural differences isn’t.

This issue has been researched over many years. Geert Hofstede has covered country dynamics for many decades and is identified as one of the leading experts on it.

https://www.hofstede-insights.com/pr...are-countries/

There are of course differences between Thais and Malays. However, when looking at a global picture, it’s often useful to use later building blocks than country comparisons.

Deceiving a grouping of people such as Europeans or north’s Americans isn’t racists. It’s a larger regional comparison.

New Zealand and Australia are unlikely or ever be described as having rights packed urban conurbations when compared to European country’s . Those urban areas are also a lock further apart.

I’m not aware for example of an underground railway system in Australia or New Zealand that have 5 million journeys a day.

The spread of a pandemic has man, many factors at play.
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tan030
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(Original post by MatureStudent37)
Most people can see the flaws, but most appear to be more understanding of the problems faced.

As I say, elements could’ve been done better with 20:20 hindsight, but when it comes to the big issues such as vaccine development, vaccine manufacturing and vaccine deployment, they have done rather well. (Note, that’s not just going to be government m, but the civil service
The government may have rolled out the vaccines but they didnt develop or manufacture it! It is the scientists who develop/manufacture it - not the government! The government must have you on their payroll with you giving them credit for things they didnt even do.

We all know you're a tory apologist and you've only gone and proven my point - the best defence the blind Tory supporters have is whattaboutery in relation to other countries and 'what would you do instead'
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tan030
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(Original post by MatureStudent37)
Similar things happened throughout Europe.

The last time we had to deal with anything like this is in 1918.

The scale of what we’ve had to deal with is similar to WW2.

Issues such as exam U turns are trivia when looking at the big picture.
The government are paid to get things right. One or two mistakes fair enough, but repeated mistake after mistake is unacceptable. In any other job, you'd be sacked for incompetence so why dont you apply the the same to people within government?

I think the individual is referring to the 'system' that was put into place to assign grades to students who couldnt sit exams but the system took into account other variables such as demographics, location, whether the school was private/state and history of school performance (all which a student shouldn't have to consider when being given grades). Not to mention more lies from Gavin.W who opened schools in december, said they wouldn't be closing again and then had to shut them again a week later.

Exam marking systems, u-turns and schooling are all important for future generations. This lockdown is destroying the futures of the younger generation and what will the face in the future - that's right, increased taxation to cover up for Tory incompetence. You and the tories share one thing in common - a lack of regard for future generations by referring to them as 'trivial'..
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MatureStudent37
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(Original post by tan030)
The government may have rolled out the vaccines but they didnt develop or manufacture it! It is the scientists who develop/manufacture it - not the government! The government must have you on their payroll with you giving them credit for things they didnt even do.

We all know you're a tory apologist and you've only gone and proven my point - the best defence the blind Tory supporters have is whattaboutery in relation to other countries and 'what would you do instead'
You are correct. The government didn’t develop the vaccine, or manufacture it.

It did however throw a f*ck tonne of money at the problem and set the basis for a very successful vaccine rollout that included an at cost vaccine that is substantially cheaper than the alternatives which has a possible contact in the global scale.


https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/20...son-286384093/

Obviously, because the Guardian newspaper writes to cater for the political seatings of its readership, they’ll try and denigrate what’s happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-uk-investment

The Guardian uses the word ‘may’ as it’s knows it’s readership will automatically translate it to ‘will.’

I’m not a Tory apologist. I just don’t do identity politics. What the U.K. has achieved is incredibly good and beneficial not only to the U.K., but the global family in general. I’m just getting annoyed with shouty minorities trying to push their narratives.

Here’s one for you. Argentina is now manufacturing the AstraZeneca vaccine at cost to service the South American markets requirements.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKCN25A2YI

This is a truly global effort. I know you’re probably upset that all of your predictions for brexit haven’t materialised. But you really shouldn’t be attacking this success story.
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MatureStudent37
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(Original post by tan030)
The government are paid to get things right. One or two mistakes fair enough, but repeated mistake after mistake is unacceptable. In any other job, you'd be sacked for incompetence so why dont you apply the the same to people within government?

I think the individual is referring to the 'system' that was put into place to assign grades to students who couldnt sit exams but the system took into account other variables such as demographics, location, whether the school was private/state and history of school performance (all which a student shouldn't have to consider when being given grades). Not to mention more lies from Gavin.W who opened schools in december, said they wouldn't be closing again and then had to shut them again a week later.

Exam marking systems, u-turns and schooling are all important for future generations. This lockdown is destroying the futures of the younger generation and what will the face in the future - that's right, increased taxation to cover up for Tory incompetence. You and the tories share one thing in common - a lack of regard for future generations by referring to them as 'trivial'..
Governments are to there to pass the require legislation in order to set the scene set for success.

We had a massive global PPE shortage. Remember the criticism they got for a global problem? Remember the criticism they received for not joining the EU procurement programme? Remember how that one went? You’re correct. We procured it quicker?

Ventilator shortage? That’s right. Industry was mobilised to mass produce ventilators that fortunately we didn’t need.

Testing fiasco? That’s right. We started with very low levels of testing me appear to now heave one of the most effective test regimes in the world.

Exam fiasco. Sh*t happens. Global pandemic and all. However one could argue that in the scale of things to get upset about, exams isn’t high up there. I’ve done al the exams I need to do. My kids are too young for exams to matter. My biggest concern was, and is, navigating through a global pandemic, keeping the most vulnerable in society safe, keeping working and limiting Damage to the economy.

What’s been happening has been nothing short of amazing/frightening/stressful.

At the start of this we’re we’re planning for something we never knew what was going to happen. Death projections were massive. Cold War scenarios and planning were being dusted off. I’ve been out the army for 6 years now. I was was getting contacted to ensure that the MOD had my correct contact details. Why you may ask? There were plans to mobilise not just the Army Reserves, but those with limited reserve liability to start burying the dead. That would’ve probably included OTC types as well. Those plans had already been discussed at government and regional level. I’ve friends who were sat in on them. Sites identified and compulsory purchase orders ready to go to buy up the land.

So yeah, all in all, not a bad response. Could’ve been better, equally it could’ve been a hell of a lot worse.
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Imane888
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(Original post by tan030)
The government are paid to get things right. One or two mistakes fair enough, but repeated mistake after mistake is unacceptable. In any other job, you'd be sacked for incompetence so why dont you apply the the same to people within government?

I think the individual is referring to the 'system' that was put into place to assign grades to students who couldnt sit exams but the system took into account other variables such as demographics, location, whether the school was private/state and history of school performance (all which a student shouldn't have to consider when being given grades). Not to mention more lies from Gavin.W who opened schools in december, said they wouldn't be closing again and then had to shut them again a week later.

Exam marking systems, u-turns and schooling are all important for future generations. This lockdown is destroying the futures of the younger generation and what will the face in the future - that's right, increased taxation to cover up for Tory incompetence. You and the tories share one thing in common - a lack of regard for future generations by referring to them as 'trivial'..
I was referring to the government bowing down and giving teacher predicted grades (which lead to grade over inflation and devaluation) rather than sicking to their guts but either way it was a disaster last year and the algorithm was unfit for purpose.
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Rakas21
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I am surprised that was your critique (most lefties want higher grades given) although I do agree.
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Imane888
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(Original post by Rakas21)
I am surprised that was your critique (most lefties want higher grades given) although I do agree.
The algorithm was still BS though (some pupils got grades they've never seen before and were unfairly downgraded) but so are CAGs.
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MatureStudent37
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(Original post by Imane888)
The algorithm was still BS though (some pupils got grades they've never seen before and were unfairly downgraded) but so are CAGs.
Global pandemic going on and you’re worried about exam grades?

You need to put things into perspective a little bit. You’re concerns are way down the list of important things to worry about.
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Imane888
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(Original post by MatureStudent37)
Global pandemic going on and you’re worried about exam grades?

You need to put things into perspective a little bit. You’re concerns are way down the list of important things to worry about.
No I am worried about several things not just exam grades. This isn't the only U-turn that the government has done, they've done many more (WFH vs GTW), implemented rules that don't make sense (rule of 6) etc.
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MatureStudent37
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(Original post by Imane888)
No I am worried about several things not just exam grades. This isn't the only U-turn that the government has done, they've done many more (WFH vs GTW), implemented rules that don't make sense (rule of 6) etc.
U turns happen an awful lot when the future is as unpredictable as it has been recently.
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Imane888
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(Original post by MatureStudent37)
U turns happen an awful lot when the future is as unpredictable as it has been recently.
Then the government should have stopped making false promises. They received warnings about schools, releasing lockdown too early, having Christmas, the algorithm etc but they still went ahead with those actions and bang U-turn here, U-turn there, with some extra U-turns sprinkled on the top. Baffling as tan030 says that you're refusing to admit that we could have done things better and that this government (not just the Tories (because I don't like this Tory=Bad, Labour=Good or vice versa nonsense)) are incompetent. I don't hate Boris (Gove is the one I strongly dislike) but he has screwed up, other than the vaccination program which has been excellent.
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MatureStudent37
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(Original post by Imane888)
Then the government should have stopped making false promises. They received warnings about schools, releasing lockdown too early, having Christmas, the algorithm etc but they still went ahead with those actions and bang U-turn here, U-turn there, with some extra U-turns sprinkled on the top. Baffling as tan030 says that you're refusing to admit that we could have done things better and that this government (not just the Tories (because I don't like this Tory=Bad, Labour=Good or vice versa nonsense)) are incompetent. I don't hate Boris (Gove is the one I strongly dislike) but he has screwed up, other than the vaccination program which has been excellent.
Things changed. The Kent strain caught a lot of people by stories in the run up to Christmas.

I’m not saying we couldn’t have done things better. I’m saying with 20:20 hindsight, some things could’ve been done differently. However, you don’t know what You don’t know.

The major things, the furlough scheme, going out buying PPE, securing a supply of ventilators, throwing money at developing a vaccine, increasing testing, the vaccine purchase scheme, the investment in vaccine production and the vaccine roll out have all gone rather well.

As o say. At the start of this we were in a day of days type scenario expecting bodies to be piling up quicker than we could dispose of them.
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Imane888
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(Original post by MatureStudent37)
Things changed. The Kent strain caught a lot of people by stories in the run up to Christmas.

I’m not saying we couldn’t have done things better. I’m saying with 20:20 hindsight, some things could’ve been done differently. However, you don’t know what You don’t know.

The major things, the furlough scheme, going out buying PPE, securing a supply of ventilators, throwing money at developing a vaccine, increasing testing, the vaccine purchase scheme, the investment in vaccine production and the vaccine roll out have all gone rather well.

As o say. At the start of this we were in a day of days type scenario expecting bodies to be piling up quicker than we could dispose of them.
So still coming up with excuses.
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MatureStudent37
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(Original post by Imane888)
So still coming up with excuses.
Not excuses. If I were coming up with those I’d be justifying decision A was made because of evidence X,Y and Z.

I’m merely pointing out that decision A was made because nobody fully knew, or understood evidence X,Y and Z.

It’s a little bit like a military of police after action report. Decisions made by people in a moment in time without access to all of the relevant information make a decision that they believe is the best decision at the time. They then have a group of people with the luxury of time, 20:20 hindsight and often information that want available, or was lost on the other contradictory reporting, sitting on the sidelines criticising.

It’s a bit like Kier Starmer or Nicola Sturgeon. They’re not making the decisions, but they’ll try to make political capital. That why Kier Starmers ‘key worker vaccination’ call has been renamed the ‘kill a granny strategy.’ Give a vaccination to a perfectly healthy and low risk 20 something teacher, thus denying somebody more at risk a vaccine. Makes great headlines, but it doesn’t address the problem.
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Imane888
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(Original post by MatureStudent37)
Not excuses. If I were coming up with those I’d be justifying decision A was made because of evidence X,Y and Z.

I’m merely pointing out that decision A was made because nobody fully knew, or understood evidence X,Y and Z.

It’s a little bit like a military of police after action report. Decisions made by people in a moment in time without access to all of the relevant information make a decision that they believe is the best decision at the time. They then have a group of people with the luxury of time, 20:20 hindsight and often information that want available, or was lost on the other contradictory reporting, sitting on the sidelines criticising.

It’s a bit like Kier Starmer or Nicola Sturgeon. They’re not making the decisions, but they’ll try to make political capital. That why Kier Starmers ‘key worker vaccination’ call has been renamed the ‘kill a granny strategy.’ Give a vaccination to a perfectly healthy and low risk 20 something teacher, thus denying somebody more at risk a vaccine. Makes great headlines, but it doesn’t address the problem.
The Government received warnings from scientists and we know that viruses mutate so no excuses or sympathy for the constant u-turns from the British government.
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MatureStudent37
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(Original post by Imane888)
The Government received warnings from scientists and we know that viruses mutate so no excuses or sympathy for the constant u-turns from the British government.
The government would’ve received many different types of warnings from many different types of scientist. Often contradictory

At the same one, the government would’ve been having to take into account factors that scientists wouldn’t be thinking about. I’ve a friend who’s a consultant in an A&E deportment who’s been quite critical. Even she’s understood that you can’t lock down an entire country. That was after I pointed out to here how would I be able to pay her wage bill if I’m out of work? Even she got that.

Many experts may be experts in their particular field, but may not be able to address the higher picture. Government is a balancing out.

How many times were doctors rolled out condemning the single dose strategy? I understand why. Doctors are only interested In their patient. They may struggle to deal with the hypotheticals of we’re not eradicating, but we’re reducing the chance of your patient during in order to increase the chance of somebody else who’s going die. There was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth over that one.

These decisions are difficult to make.

Remember, at the time, nobody had any idea what was going to happen or even if a vaccine would be developed. You can’t lock a country down indefinitely.

So how did the school closure U turn just after Christmas impact on you?
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Imane888
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(Original post by MatureStudent37)
The government would’ve received many different types of warnings from many different types of scientist. Often contradictory

At the same one, the government would’ve been having to take into account factors that scientists wouldn’t be thinking about. I’ve a friend who’s a consultant in an A&E deportment who’s been quite critical. Even she’s understood that you can’t lock down an entire country. That was after I pointed out to here how would I be able to pay her wage bill if I’m out of work? Even she got that.

Many experts may be experts in their particular field, but may not be able to address the higher picture. Government is a balancing out.

How many times were doctors rolled out condemning the single dose strategy? I understand why. Doctors are only interested In their patient. They may struggle to deal with the hypotheticals of we’re not eradicating, but we’re reducing the chance of your patient during in order to increase the chance of somebody else who’s going die. There was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth over that one.

These decisions are difficult to make.

Remember, at the time, nobody had any idea what was going to happen or even if a vaccine would be developed. You can’t lock a country down indefinitely.

So how did the school closure U turn just after Christmas impact on you?
Uh I haven't been able to go to school (would rather be in school tbh). I am actually against these UK lockdowns because of the way they are implemented (sick of these cycle of lockdowns), should have had 1 harsh proper lockdown at the beginning, borders shut, good track and trace etc (don't use the "but the UK is..." Argument. Sick of it as it's just pathetic excuses.) so that we hopefully wouldn't be having these cycles of indefinite lockdowns. Again all I see in this post is excuses after excuses.
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MatureStudent37
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(Original post by Imane888)
Uh I haven't been able to go to school (would rather be in school tbh). I am actually against these UK lockdowns because of the way they are implemented (sick of these cycle of lockdowns), should have had 1 harsh proper lockdown at the beginning, borders shut, good track and trace etc (don't use the "but the UK is..." Argument. Sick of it as it's just pathetic excuses.) so that we hopefully wouldn't be having these cycles of indefinite lockdowns. Again all I see in this post is excuses after excuses.
1 harsh lockdown would never have worked. Especially as at the time nobody even knew if a vaccine was possible.

So what you would’ve liked wouldn’t have worked.

My wife’s had to change from a 5 day working week done over 4 days to a three day working week done over 3.

We’re fortunate youngest is at preschool. Eldest is autistic. I’ve had 10 months of an autistic kid being proper screwed over with this pandemic. Easy to blame the government. When they shut schools after Christmas it was a kick in the teeth, but their school reopened after the necessary adjustment.

My biggest concern is loosing my job, not being able to pay the mortgage and loosing the family home. Sort of puts it into perspective really.

I get frustrated by the decisions being made. I’ll even get angry and curse those making the decisions. But I can’t blame them for the position we’re in.

That’s why I don’t believe in the OPs claim that anybody in government should be taken to court. This is new territory for everybody. I’ve seen so much failed political crap in my life, when the sh*t hits the fan, I’m amazed that we can pull it together then. I question why we can’t do it at other times.
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Imane888
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(Original post by MatureStudent37)
1 harsh lockdown would never have worked. Especially as at the time nobody even knew if a vaccine was possible.

So what you would’ve liked wouldn’t have worked.

My wife’s had to change from a 5 day working week done over 4 days to a three day working week done over 3.

We’re fortunate youngest is at preschool. Eldest is autistic. I’ve had 10 months of an autistic kid being proper screwed over with this pandemic. Easy to blame the government. When they shut schools after Christmas it was a kick in the teeth, but their school reopened after the necessary adjustment.

My biggest concern is loosing my job, not being able to pay the mortgage and loosing the family home. Sort of puts it into perspective really.

I get frustrated by the decisions being made. I’ll even get angry and curse those making the decisions. But I can’t blame them for the position we’re in.

That’s why I don’t believe in the OPs claim that anybody in government should be taken to court. This is new territory for everybody. I’ve seen so much failed political crap in my life, when the sh*t hits the fan, I’m amazed that we can pull it together then. I question why we can’t do it at other times.
How do you know that having 1 harsh lockdown would have been worst than a never-ending cycle of lockdowns? The government are responsible for the well-being of its citizens and have refused to listen to scientists on time therefore it is their fault along with rule-breakers. I meant look at care homes as a good example. If it's not the government's fault then whose fault is it? Because other countries with competent governments have actually managed to get a grip on the virus and gov are the ones who decide the COVID rules.
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