-Imperator-
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Napp)
What exactly makes this thing 'unpleasantly right wing'?
Toby Young's union only really exists to defend people's right to say unpleasant things on social media. His twitter history is a testament to this. It shouldn't be illegal to make deeply offensive comments in the public forum, but it shouldn't be condoned either.

We had a free speech society at my uni for people who wanted to debate controversial matters and be free to present heterodox opinions without any threat of backlash/stigmatisation. I know one of the founders. They were invited to take part in a freedom of expression campaign, which turned out to the work of Young's FSU. They found that the organisers were not interested so much in promoting free speech as they were in defending right-wing positions.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...-founded-group
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Azagthoa
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#42
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Women, LGBT+ and especially BAME students should come to uni to find a place they are safe and free from the harmful, racist ideas that permeate British society. If that should mean that certain speakers are barred from speaking on campus, then so be it. Their right to speak should not come above the safety of marginalised groups. Black people especially face a constant fight to just exist every day in British society, universities should be inclusive and welcoming spaces for them. We need more antiracist speakers like Ibram Kendi and Robin DiAngelo.
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harrysbar
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#43
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#43
(Original post by Azagthoa)
Women, LGBT+ and especially BAME students should come to uni to find a place they are safe and free from the harmful, racist ideas that permeate British society. If that should mean that certain speakers are barred from speaking on campus, then so be it. Their right to speak should not come above the safety of marginalised groups. Black people especially face a constant fight to just exist every day in British society, universities should be inclusive and welcoming spaces for them. We need more antiracist speakers like Ibram Kendi and Robin DiAngelo.
You can hardly include women as part of a minority group when we make up more than 50% of university communities in the U.K. And I very much doubt that most Black people would thank you for your negative assumption that they “face a constant struggle to just exist in British society”.
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-Imperator-
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#44
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(Original post by Azagthoa)
Women, LGBT+ and especially BAME students should come to uni to find a place they are safe and free from the harmful, racist ideas that permeate British society. If that should mean that certain speakers are barred from speaking on campus, then so be it. Their right to speak should not come above the safety of marginalised groups. Black people especially face a constant fight to just exist every day in British society, universities should be inclusive and welcoming spaces for them. We need more antiracist speakers like Ibram Kendi and Robin DiAngelo.
Right to free speech absolutely should come above right not to be offended.
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TNOD
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#45
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When people are more angry about universities being fined for banning "hateful" speakers than some British universities being in collusion with and aiding China, the most repressive and tyrannical nation on earth, you know there is a problem.
Last edited by TNOD; 2 weeks ago
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MatureStudent37
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#46
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(Original post by Azagthoa)
Women, LGBT+ and especially BAME students should come to uni to find a place they are safe and free from the harmful, racist ideas that permeate British society. If that should mean that certain speakers are barred from speaking on campus, then so be it. Their right to speak should not come above the safety of marginalised groups. Black people especially face a constant fight to just exist every day in British society, universities should be inclusive and welcoming spaces for them. We need more antiracist speakers like Ibram Kendi and Robin DiAngelo.
So white heterosexual males am an be targeted.

I’m struggling to actually think of a time during a 4 year undergraduate course and a 2 year postgraduate course where I ever witnessed anything you’ve described.

I’ve witnessed people playing the race card for poor performance and I’ve also noticed a significant increase in intolerant white people fighting for minority rights . (Often mocked by those they claim to defend)

I’ve also witnessed a massive increase in people’s degree of self entitlement where they think the whole world should change for them.
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Vapordave
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#47
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I completely support free speech in the sense of opinions being expressed in public institutions, but I feel as if certain people use 'free speech' to condemn people who dare to criticise them.

For example, I am not aware of any concrete effects of the fallout caused by the JK Rowling incident that were not either directly caused by her or just a result of people expressing their counter-opinion. We should not be deplatforming people we don't agree with, but we should not be forced to tolerate opinions that we see as damaging.
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Ascend
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#48
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(Original post by -Imperator-)
Right to free speech absolutely should come above right not to be offended.
There shouldn't ever be a 'right not to be offended'. It doesn't exist in any rational sense.
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looloo2134
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#49
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(Original post by Azagthoa)
Women, LGBT+ and especially BAME students should come to uni to find a place they are safe and free from the harmful, racist ideas that permeate British society. If that should mean that certain speakers are barred from speaking on campus, then so be it. Their right to speak should not come above the safety of marginalised groups. Black people especially face a constant fight to just exist every day in British society, universities should be inclusive and welcoming spaces for them. We need more antiracist speakers like Ibram Kendi and Robin DiAngelo.
The people in Britain who are most unlike to go university are working class white males they also most likely to unemployed homeless in bad health die younger and fail their GCSEs. The most marginalised group of people are white working class male who come from small market town and sea side towns. But I never see a woke people caring about them.
An even more marginalised group are Irish Travelers they die young their in poor health and almost none go on to higher education are even take GCSEs.
Last edited by looloo2134; 2 weeks ago
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Megacent
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#50
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(Original post by harrysbar)
It definitely wouldn't be up to the individual unis to decide as they are the ones potentially being fined for being "too woke." According to the Daily Mail source highlighted by another poster, more than a third of British universities are imposing 'severe' restrictions on freedom of speech including Oxford, Cambridge and St Andrews, so these are the ones most in danger of being fined.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...el-people.html
Who do you think should decide?
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harrysbar
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#51
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#51
(Original post by Megacent)
Who do you think should decide?
I honestly don't know - I don't claim to be an expert just started the thread because I thought "War on Woke" was interesting. I do personally think the whole "woke" thing has gone too far, especially as looloo points out the woke types only care about certain groups rights and sensitivities and not others. There is a sense of common sense going out the window when unis spend loads of money just to stop certain groups getting offended - the money could be better spent elsewhere I'm sure, on things like improving student services that would benefit everyone.
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yeetouttawindow
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#52
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(Original post by harrysbar)
I think the vast majority of the UK would agree with you that Britain has a racist colonialist past - only a few extremely right wing people might deny it but even they would probably acknowledge it (but be proud of it).
british history doesn't go beyond 2 world wars and a world cup for majority. any notion of the empire is a probably a warped fantasy.
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harrysbar
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#53
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(Original post by yeetouttawindow)
british history doesn't go beyond 2 world wars and a world cup for majority. any notion of the empire is a probably a warped fantasy.
Yes we may not know much detail but I still don’t think many would deny colonialism happened because it has been bought to our attention that it did.
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MatureStudent37
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#54
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(Original post by harrysbar)
Yes we may not know much detail but I still don’t think many would deny colonialism happened because it has been bought to our attention that it did.
It’s been bought to our attention by a certain grouping who have taken separate acts in isolation.

BLM is a prime example. Focus on British slavers. Forgetting that the slave trade was and has was been a global issue. Yet we were the ones that took a stand and stopped it. Why should I be ashamed of something that happened centuries ago.

This pish isn’t anything new. We’ve had lard left people infiltrating the education system since the 70s trying to undermine who we are.
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harrysbar
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#55
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(Original post by MatureStudent37)
It’s been bought to our attention by a certain grouping who have taken separate acts in isolation.

BLM is a prime example. Focus on British slavers. Forgetting that the slave trade was and has was been a global issue. Yet we were the ones that took a stand and stopped it. Why should I be ashamed of something that happened centuries ago.

This pish isn’t anything new. We’ve had lard left people infiltrating the education system since the 70s trying to undermine who we are.
I’m sorry that terrible things like the slave trade happened but do I feel personal guilt or shame? No, because it was nothing to do with me.
My parents raised me to treat others as you would like to be treated so I treat everyone with respect. It’s as simple as that.
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SHallowvale
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#56
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(Original post by DSilva)
The only thing more annoying than woke people are those who incessantly go on about and complain about woke people.
I always hear more people complaining about woke people than I do actual woke people! 😂
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anarchism101
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#57
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(Original post by harrysbar)
A recent poll shows that 49% of Britons believe they are less free to say what they think than five years ago
*A recent poll published by a political party whose raison d'etre is that that is precisely what's happening, so to be treated with scepticism.

which is exemplified by the hate thrown at certain celebrities who dare to voice an unwoke opinion.
So people supposedly being less free to say what they think is exemplified by lots of people saying what they think?
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harrysbar
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#58
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#58
(Original post by anarchism101)
So people supposedly being less free to say what they think is exemplified by lots of people saying what they think?
In response to an article using the term "people who menstuate" JK Rowling thought she was safe to make an off the cuff joke, ‘I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?’

Turns out she was not free to say what she thought about the long winded description because despite no other evidence at all, she got widely accused of transphobia. Which is confusing in itself to the less woke amongst us because aren't transgender women well...women?
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Napp
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#59
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#59
(Original post by -Imperator-)
Toby Young's union only really exists to defend people's right to say unpleasant things on social media. His twitter history is a testament to this. It shouldn't be illegal to make deeply offensive comments in the public forum, but it shouldn't be condoned either.

We had a free speech society at my uni for people who wanted to debate controversial matters and be free to present heterodox opinions without any threat of backlash/stigmatisation. I know one of the founders. They were invited to take part in a freedom of expression campaign, which turned out to the work of Young's FSU. They found that the organisers were not interested so much in promoting free speech as they were in defending right-wing positions.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...-founded-group
That seems a somewhat disingenuous interpretation of it, for the reasons i gave earlier. Especially given the novel practice of activists stalking people and making it their business to ruin whomever it is life. Saying something rude/dumb on the web is one thing but making it a point to ruin their livlihood and such in turn would seem the more despicable action of the two. Being offended < being made homeless and all.
That isnt to say that all the people assosiated with this 'union' of his are worth protecting but given the nice list published of some of the cases theyve taken up (the Eton teacher being a nice example) they would seem to be doing some good work in spite of everything else.

Alas, that is the problem with free speech, there will always be those who seek to abuse the right, although that goes for every single right for that matter. The practice of cyberbullying/stalking/harassment that these lot (on both sides) seems a more pressing issue that needs attending to imo. Trying to get people fired and their families made homeless comes across as more of an urgent problem than some nob head making an insensitive comment on fb or what not - although if people are silly enough to make the remarks in the first place..
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DSilva
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#60
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(Original post by Napp)
That seems a somewhat disingenuous interpretation of it, for the reasons i gave earlier. Especially given the novel practice of activists stalking people and making it their business to ruin whomever it is life. Saying something rude/dumb on the web is one thing but making it a point to ruin their livlihood and such in turn would seem the more despicable action of the two. Being offended < being made homeless and all.
That isnt to say that all the people assosiated with this 'union' of his are worth protecting but given the nice list published of some of the cases theyve taken up (the Eton teacher being a nice example) they would seem to be doing some good work in spite of everything else.

Alas, that is the problem with free speech, there will always be those who seek to abuse the right, although that goes for every single right for that matter. The practice of cyberbullying/stalking/harassment that these lot (on both sides) seems a more pressing issue that needs attending to imo. Trying to get people fired and their families made homeless comes across as more of an urgent problem than some nob head making an insensitive comment on fb or what not - although if people are silly enough to make the remarks in the first place..
Plenty of people seem to confuse the right to say what you want with the right to face no consequences for what you say.

You should be entitled to spew offensive bile on the Internet for sure. But if your employer decides that your actions have brought the company into disrepute the they are more than entitled to dismiss you.

Can't get on board with Toby Young's organisation. He's vile. And the types of people on the right who claim to support free speech are all too happy to shut down the speech of those they disagree with.
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