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Starship Trooper
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Napp)
You are aware that the MEP's are elcted right? .
What about the president? Ursula what's her name
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Napp
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Starship Trooper)
What about the president? Ursula what's her name
What about Bojo? He isnt elected outside of his constituency, allowing a few thousand people to decide who is the PM would seem more than slightly undemocratic, no? And completely applicable for the example you've given..
(nor are any of the MP's in the sense you have no choice in who stands for the party in your area)
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Starship Trooper
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Napp)
What about Bojo? He isnt elected outside of his constituency, allowing a few thousand people to decide who is the PM would seem more than slightly undemocratic, no? And completely applicable for the example you've given..
(nor are any of the MP's in the sense you have no choice in who stands for the party in your area)
I agree and that's why I'm a republican and support an elected president.

But the fact remains that the prime minister is more democratically accountable than the EU president. Thousands of members of the public could in theory depose a bad PM , the EU president has no such risk
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DSilva
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#24
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#24
(Original post by MatureStudent37)
Then again, I like democracy.
Except when Trump loses, tries to overturn the result and incites a coup . Then you seen to care much less about it
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MatureStudent37
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#25
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#25
(Original post by DSilva)
Except when Trump loses, tries to overturn the result and incites a coup . Then you seen to care much less about it
I’m not really others who wins in the states. They’ve seem to be actively going out of their way to elect pond life to key positions.

A demonstration isn’t a coup. You’d have needed either a mass movement of people to seize power (against the military backing the government) or the military taking over the government.

Had Trump called for the military to detain congress, I’d be agreeing with you.

Then again. They’ve voted one idiot out and elected another idiot in.

https://youtu.be/1cet6MLdgkc
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DSilva
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#26
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#26
(Original post by MatureStudent37)
I’m not really others who wins in the states. They’ve seem to be actively going out of their way to elect pond life to key positions.

A demonstration isn’t a coup. You’d have needed either a mass movement of people to seize power (against the military backing the government) or the military taking over the government.

Had Trump called for the military to detain congress, I’d be agreeing with you.

Then again. They’ve voted one idiot out and elected another idiot in.

https://youtu.be/1cet6MLdgkc
Trump tried to overturn the valid election results. You can argue til the cows come home about the technicalities of a coup but it doesn't change the central point that thr American political right refused to accept the results of an election as legitimate and sought to overturn it.
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MatureStudent37
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#27
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#27
(Original post by DSilva)
Trump tried to overturn the valid election results. You can argue til the cows come home about the technicalities of a coup but it doesn't change the central point that thr American political right refused to accept the results of an election as legitimate and sought to overturn it.
So did Clinton.

It seems to be normal now in the US. Try and use the courts to get what you want.
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imlikeahermit
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#28
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#28
The country would not be in the economic position it was in had Margaret Thatcher not come to power. She made us self-reliant, removed the state overwhelming individuals, and gave individuals hope in which they could make their own lives through property ownership and success. If you are ambitious, and want to succeed you do well under a Thatcher style government, if you are lazy, workshy and are prepared to make excuse after excuse for your own inflicted problems you do badly.

People say Thatcher and immediately go “she shut the mines.” She didn’t, Labour closed more in the previous government, all she did was deliver the final blow to an expensive and totally unsustainable business. Without her doing that we would not have been in the position we are today.

That being said, I’m tremendously sad to see a Conservative government under the leadership of BJ to economically euthanise this country and continue with a vain vanity project that will make the poorest more reliant in the state. Brexit will be the biggest mistake in this countries history, mark my words. Thatcher would despise it.
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DSilva
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#29
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#29
(Original post by MatureStudent37)
So did Clinton.

It seems to be normal now in the US. Try and use the courts to get what you want.
Clinton conceded the day after the election. Trump still hasn't accepted the election result was legitimate.

Clinton didn't take the election to court.

Don't even try and pretend it's the same thing.
Last edited by DSilva; 1 week ago
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MatureStudent37
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#30
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#30
(Original post by DSilva)
Clinton conceded the day after the election. Trump still hasn't accepted the election result was legitimate.

Clinton didn't take the election to court.

Don't even try and pretend it's the same thing.
I’m not too bothered. Clinton, Biden and Trump are all shockingly poor politicians.
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Starship Trooper
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#31
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#31
imlikeahermit

I can't see Thatcher voting remain in 2016. She didn't like referendums and voted to join the EU in 75 but by the end of her life she became a Brexiteer

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imlikeahermit
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Starship Trooper)
imlikeahermit

I can't see Thatcher voting remain in 2016. She didn't like referendums and voted to join the EU in 75 but by the end of her life she became a Brexiteer

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She wouldn’t have allowed the referendum in the first place, which makes everything after that null and void. She absolutely certainly wouldn’t have supported something which makes the poorest in society more reliant on the state.
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DSilva
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#33
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#33
(Original post by MatureStudent37)
I’m not too bothered. Clinton, Biden and Trump are all shockingly poor politicians.
Every time someone brings up Trump you deflect to talk about Democrats or the left.

It's really quite telling.
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Starship Trooper
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#34
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#34
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
She wouldn’t have allowed the referendum in the first place, which makes everything after that null and void. She absolutely certainly wouldn’t have supported something which makes the poorest in society more reliant on the state.
So you don't believe the sources 🤣

By staying in the EU you would be the poorest more reliant state (the state being the EU !) I suspect if she was alive today she'd make Boris Johnson look like nick clegg
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Napp
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Starship Trooper)
I agree and that's why I'm a republican and support an elected president.

But the fact remains that the prime minister is more democratically accountable than the EU president. Thousands of members of the public could in theory depose a bad PM , the EU president has no such risk
Hm to be honest, and all the facts support this, the monarch as we have one appears infinitely preferable to an American style president. Not only does she enjoy the benefit of not having to indulge in squalid politics and ignore the national interest but she is actually respected (unlike any politician lol)

To a point however my point was that the EU is still both democratic and accountable. In different ways than our national MPs but thats beside the point.
Well, in a round about way they do but the point is taken.
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imlikeahermit
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Starship Trooper)
So you don't believe the sources 🤣

By staying in the EU you would be the poorest more reliant state (the state being the EU !) I suspect if she was alive today she'd make Boris Johnson look like nick clegg
It’s not that I don’t believe the sources, it’s that she would have never allowed the referendum in the first place therefore we’d never be in the position we are in today.

Last part doesn’t even make sense, but I get the impression that you somehow believe staying in the EU makes us poorer, which is totally incorrect, and given that the governments own Brexit predictions has at least 1.75m jobs going, how is that not making the poor poorer?
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Starship Trooper
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#37
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#37
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
It’s not that I don’t believe the sources, it’s that she would have never allowed the referendum in the first place therefore we’d never be in the position we are in today.

Last part doesn’t even make sense, but I get the impression that you somehow believe staying in the EU makes us poorer, which is totally incorrect, and given that the governments own Brexit predictions has at least 1.75m jobs going, how is that not making the poor poorer?
Well she said we needed to have one so its reasonable to suggest that had one came about she would have supported it.

We both said and I quote 'making the poor more reliant upon the state' Not 'making the poor poorer' it doesn't necessarily follow that making people less reliant upon the state makes them richer.

My point is that being in the EU made people reliant upon the EU (state). This is why all the Thatcherites alive today such as Redwood, Tebbit etc are all brexiteers because in order to deregulate now is dependent whether it meets laws from Brussels

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As above her life work was to oppose the lefts policies why would she support those same policies if they're done by the EU instead? If the EU returned to the basics she would support it again, but so would Nigel farage!
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imlikeahermit
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#38
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#38
(Original post by Starship Trooper)
Well she said we needed to have one so its reasonable to suggest that had one came about she would have supported it.

We both said and I quote 'making the poor more reliant upon the state' Not 'making the poor poorer' it doesn't necessarily follow that making people less reliant upon the state makes them richer.

My point is that being in the EU made people reliant upon the EU (state). This is why all the Thatcherites alive today such as Redwood, Tebbit etc are all brexiteers because in order to deregulate now is dependent whether it meets laws from Brussels

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As above her life work was to oppose the lefts policies why would she support those same policies if they're done by the EU instead? If the EU returned to the basics she would support it again, but so would Nigel farage!
It makes them more reliant on the state because of the job losses. I know you and your little englanders see the EU as some giant conglomerate state but I don’t. I see it as our closest trading partner. I see it as our friend. There is absolutely no doubt that Brexit in it’s entirety will make people more reliant on the state as in our state; our new ‘sovereign’ government. We’re already seeing this with the U.K. now basically subsidising fishing because it doesn’t make enough money. Brexit makes everyone poorer, but will make the poorest in our society both reliant in the state, and poorer overall.

In regards to Thatcher she believed that referenda were the work of the devil, therefore there is no way we would have had the referendum in the first place. It doesn’t mean that I’m saying that she would have supported EU membership, however one would assume we would still be members, talking hypothetically.
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Starship Trooper
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#39
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#39
(Original post by imlikeahermit)
It makes them more reliant on the state because of the job losses. I know you and your little englanders see the EU as some giant conglomerate state but I don’t. I see it as our closest trading partner. I see it as our friend. There is absolutely no doubt that Brexit in it’s entirety will make people more reliant on the state as in our state; our new ‘sovereign’ government. We’re already seeing this with the U.K. now basically subsidising fishing because it doesn’t make enough money. Brexit makes everyone poorer, but will make the poorest in our society both reliant in the state, and poorer overall.

In regards to Thatcher she believed that referenda were the work of the devil, therefore there is no way we would have had the referendum in the first place. It doesn’t mean that I’m saying that she would have supported EU membership, however one would assume we would still be members, talking hypothetically.
But Thatcher put thousands of people out of work too lol which by your logic would mean that she was making them more reliant on the state. In short she showed she was willing to sacrifice jobs for a greater good.

What you see the EU as is irrelevant. The point is the EU has changed massively in the last forty years which is why proponents of it then are now it's bitter foes.

I am willing to partially concede the economic point to you but you need to question why you would froth at the mouth if labour put forward red tape or left wing vanity projects but seem to happily accept it if it comes from the EU ? 🤔

As I've said before i'm not a little Englander. If the EU was lead by a Le Pen or a Orban I would happily consider rejoining. But it's not: it's run by the sort if people Thatcher loathed.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2koyUc-4MQ0


________________________________ ______
On your second point she literally said we should have a referendum and that the EU was unreformable.

Admit it, the "little englanders" are on the side of Thatcher- you're on the side of Heath and Wilson !
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MatureStudent37
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#40
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#40
(Original post by DSilva)
Every time someone brings up Trump you deflect to talk about Democrats or the left.

It's really quite telling.
I always like to upset echo chambers.

It provokes thought and debate.
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